Starter Doesn't

[tbone5]

Seeking help from your collected Wisdom

The actors:
I have 1985 Westy, 1.9, rebuilt as a 2.3 by GoWesty, manual transmission, GoWesty’s gear reduction starter (18,000 miles on it), GoWesty’s Auxiliary Battery Kit installed

The problem:
Intermediately fails to start. Can hear the fuel pump working, starter doesn’t turn. Problem seems to be related to warm/high ambient temperature. Just finished 300 mile road trip to Joshua Tree with temperatures in the 90’s. Ran perfect. Pull in to buy some gas and no start. Push started the van to get home.

What I’ve done so far: 1) confirmed the starter battery is good and cleaned the battery terminals. 2) replaced the ignition switch 3) replaced the ground straps at the transmission and engine block - off the driver’s side (and cleaned their connection points to van). 4) Added a direct ground from the starter to the frame. 5) Finally, I tried a hard start relay (Bus Depot?). Left it on the car for a few minutes until I noticed a hot, ALMOST burning smell and then frantically shut everything off. After some searching on the Samba, found that the hard start relay doesn’t play well with the GoWesty Aux battery kit so it’s since been removed

What to do? After all the above, the van starts right up after a failed start, provided I give it time to cool.

[Ahwahnee]

The hot start relay was my suggestion when I read the start of your post. I do not know what the compatibility issue is with the GW aux battery as I don't use that -- but I would think one could design a relay set-up that would work.

Many years ago before I had heard of the hot start relay I had the same issue (happened at Joshua Tree in fact). My initial solution (which worked fine) was to add a push-button in the closet that directly triggered the starter. That went so well I changed from switch to a relay.

[brickster]

Since you got the starter from GW, have you contacted them for ideas?

[Merian]

does it make a clicking noise?

what is the batt. voltage when you turn the key - see if it drops

hard start relay apparently = hot start relay, so you need a way to get it to work with GW thing or toss that out and use a more advanced device... e.g. yandina

keep a tube and some water handy to pour down near the trans. to cool it off quicker - or a good book to read
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[tbone5]

Thanks for the replies so far. In answer to your questions:

GoWesty tells me they are not aware of any conflict between their aux battery kit and hot start relays

No clicking sounds from the starter when turning the key..all is quiet on the western front
I’ll have to measure the voltage ...I don’t know if there is a drop
And yes hard start= hot start
I’ll look into the yandina unit you’ve referenced

Finally the refrigerator works just fine, so partaking a cold one to help me cool down may be in order as well

[VicVan]

Yandina C100 is the reference you might want.

Check and clean the connections on the starter.
If clean, try to activate the starter directly by jumping the solenoid + to the + wire from the battery (using big screwdriver or remote starter switch). Does it turn?
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'90 Little Blue Truck, 2WD auto, FAS GenV 2.0 NA (AVH)

[Wildthings]

Pulling the starter and clean the plunger in the starter solenoid and lubricate it with a suitable grease. Repeat every 5-10 years or when you otherwise have the starter off for some reason.

[tbone5]

Thanks to all who chimed in and shared their expertise. So possible ways forward: 1) address the root cause (at least as I understand it) and lower the resistance of the circuit path. The offending negative cables have been replaced with shiny new stuff and all the grounds have all been cleaned. That leaves the positive wires. Could replace all those cables as well. I see this opening a big can of worms. 2) Reduce the load on those old positive cables and install a hot start relay. If I go this way I’ll have to replace the GoWesty Aux battery kit, as personal experience has shown it and the relay don’t work together. Researching vendors of the relay, I found that Uniwerks has taken over Jay’s production/distribution of the kit. Uniwerks advises that the relay is not to used in conjunction with the GoWesty Aux Kit AND the GW gear reduction starter (which of course I have). 3) Follow Ahwahnee’s suggestion: rig a switched jumper between the battery and starter and hide a switch in the rear closet.

Can’t beat the simplicity of the hidden jumper. It’s not an elegant solution, but it has two admirable advantages: cheap and easy to do! I ’ll start off with the jumper and then slowly move over to the hot start relay. Taking Merian’s & VicVan’s lead, I plan to swap the GoWesty Aux kit with a Yandina C100. May still have an issue with the integration of the relay and reduction starter, but I can always take the relay out and use the hidden jumper as the need arises. The joys of an old van….I think its time for a beer

[danfromsyr]

one problem I had on the past with a new starter.. and I don't think it's this with the high torque ones.
but the facing surface where the starter meets the bellhousing can have a huge resistance.. especially if it's painted..

I tend to sand paper the mating surfaces now and I use a lock washer under the one starter bolt (lower) that bites into the ear a little.
I also add a new/2nd negative cable to the lower starter bolt to the chassis/frame..
electrons like a clean full path with minimal obstacles.
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[Rdrunner]

Hey Vanagon folks.

I have an 84 with a 2.1 L. I replaced the ignition switch about 2 years ago. Worked fine for awhile. Now, Sometimes when I start the engine it sounds like the battery is dying. A real slow cranking noise or sometimes it doesn't even engage. I replaced the starter about 6 months ago and now it is doing the same thing.

Been reading this thread.

Manual tranny.

Any help or possible solutions appreciated.

[Wildthings]

Every cable, strap, and connection in the high amperage loop needs to be in A-1 condition, this includes the battery posts and the ground straps. Out side of my own rigs where the battery posts have seen Vaseline since they were new and the other connections have seen dielectric grease, few other rigs that I have looked under the hood on that are more than a few years old have acceptable looking cables and connection. Junky replacement style cable ends are for emergency use only and should be replaced with new cables as soon as possible.

As mentioned above you need good connections between the start body and the bellhousing as well as neither paint or corrosion are good conductors.

If the throw in force of the plunger in the solenoid is anemic for some reason, either because the plunger is sticky or because the current flow through the ignition switch is insufficient the contacts in the solenoid may not "make" well and over a span of time may become burnt.

[tbone5]

An update, and hopefully the closing chapter of this story. Just finished a two day trip in 95+ plus heat. To add even more stress, due to an accident on the highway, 2 hours stuck in stop in go traffic. Happy to report the starter fired up every time.

I did install the hot start relay from UniWerks. They had a simple workaround of the GoWesty Aux Battery kit. I’m happy to report I’ve noticed no conflict between the relay and the GoWesty high torque starter either.

On the surface problem solved…though we’ve all been down that road before. To be on the safe side, I plan to install a hidden push button in the closet as Awhanee suggested. Back when I was originally fighting this issue, I did try directly jumping the starter with a remote starter switch. With the remote the engine fired up right away. From my perspective all signs seem to suggest it’s not a problem with the starter or battery, but rather a resistance issue in the cableing.

Thanks again to all who helped out. A special shout out to UniWerks for carrying on with Jay’s hot start relay….seems to have done the trick for me.

[tbone5]

A follow up to the follow up. Just returned from an overnight road trip. 4000 ft climb in 95-100 degree temperatures. Starter fired up every time it was called upon to do its thing. Knock in wood, or rusty rocker panels, think this problem is solved.

[Sodo]

Thx for putting an update on TheSamba!

The suggestion of the 2nd start switch is a GREAT way to divide & conquer between the 3 possibilities

1) start circuit
2) power supply (big amps, big connections, big cables, big grounds)
3) mechanical starter problems

First of all the Hard start relay and the Aux battery kit are separate systems and should be able to operate independently. Hard start relay is important to extend the life of your starter switch (perhaps forever). Old switch, new crappy switch, any switch, (likely) forever.

If the Hard start relay doesn’t play with a GoWesty aux battery kit the solution is in the circuitry.. You just have to find and ask the right person who is familiar with both circuits and their purposes. That could be the hardest part.
I’d wanna get the hard start relay back onboard.

I’d delete that forward starter ground as it constitutes a possible 100amp ground path across your precision rolling elements.
Deleting it deletes a possible costly problem, and the new, inspectable starter ground is the proper method.
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'90 Westy EJ25 F&R Peloquin TDBs, 3knobs, pressure-oiled, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[jwallis]

[tbone5]

It’s been over a year since I installed the relay so I don’t remember the details…heck I don’t remember what I had for breakfast!

Any how I did use the Uniworks hot start relay, cleaned all the grounds and have have had no starting problems since. I’m driving a manual 84/5 Westy with 1.9 engine bored out/rebuilt to 2.3 by GoWesty, and yes it has the GoWesty Aux battery system. Hope this helps…if not, always park facing downward on an incline. That works too.

[jwallis]

Sounds good, thanks-
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[unibagel]

Thank you tbone5 for the shoutout!

I went whole hog on my 85 Wolfsburg Westy Weekender. I replaced the battery to starter cable with a stock 1986 spec one, MUCH thicker. I have a TDi starter and the hard start relay kit.

It starts like a dream!

Anyhow, thank you for choosing to support an innovative, enthusiast run small business! I really appreciate it!

Cheers
Chris
www.uniwerksdesign.com
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Founder: uniWerks Design, LLC specialty 3D printed Vanagon parts

www.uniwerksdesign.com