Is a new 5 speed worth it?

[Can1]

Hi,

I need to rebuild my 091/01 4 speed. I was looking at Gowesty and they have a 5 speed. its an 094. I did some research with the ratios and came up with the theory that I could change the ring and pinion (taller) on the 5-speed so that low 1st gear could be utilized and then the 5th would be a true overdrive.

Here are the ratios, what do you guys think. I did searching on the forum and could not find anything.

Four speed 091/01
1 2 3 4
3.78 2.06 1.26 .85
18.37 10.01 6.12 4.13 w/4.86
17.27 9.41 5.75 3.88 w/4.57

Five speed 094
1 2 3 4 5
4.11 2.13 1.48 1.02 .85
19.97 10.35 7.19 4.95 4.13 w/4.86

18.17 9.73 6.76 4.66 3.88 w/4.57

16.97 8.79 6.11 4.21 3.51 w/4.13


Also do I need to modify anything to put the 094 in? Is the mounting any different?

Thanks

[Zeitgeist 13]

That pretty much depends on your powerplant and the grades you need to pull at speed. A 1.8t or TDI will allow you to benefit from taller gearing.
_________________
Casey--

'89 Bluestar ALH
'01 Weekender --> full camper
NEAT, no ICE.

[0cean]

Subaru Gears 5 speed is worth it. Rebuilding an 30 year old trans into a 5 speed is not in my opinion.
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[Can1]

I was going to rebuild my engine this summer. I can't afford to do a swap so I was going to get the GW kit to make my 2.1 a 2.2L and do it myself. So I would have a bit of a power increase.

I guess the main thing I was looking at is the 5 speed with the 4.11 ring and pinion is almost the same as the factory stock 4 speed, except that its better spaced out. So when I'm on flat lands I can utilize 5th and if I'm going uphill I would not use 5th and stay in 4th and pretend I didn't have a 5 speed.

[syncrodoka]

Factory 5 speed have a different shifter, shift box and shift rods. If you modify the 4 speed hardware to work you be able to accidentally shift into reverse instead of 2nd gear unlike the factory parts. The front tranny mount is different as well.
I am not familiar with gw's offering at all.

[Terry Kay]

Any engine has a sweet spot where you're getting the most efficient hp in any gear.

You are going to lower the rpm of the engine so it'll be out of that sweet rpm spot and into an inefficient rpm range.

Going from a 2.1 to a 2.2 won't cut it, you want to lower the rpm which will take you right out of the engines rpm power range.

If you were thinking about 135-160 horse upgrade, you'd probably get away with the gearbox & rearend gear update.

100 horses won't make it.

So, what you are thinking about isn't worth itn
_________________
T.K.

[Can1]

[Terry Kay]

I am confident the bottom line won't be what you are hoping for.

It all boils down to hp limitations, & the rpm the engine was designed to get max hp at.

Slowing that engine down out of the power band won't help you any.
_________________
T.K.

[?Waldo?]

The 5-speed with a 4.1 R+P can result in lower cruising rpms and really nice gearing spacing without any overly large gaps which is invariably the result with the 4-speeds.

I have modified a 4-speed front mount to make it a 5-speed one. It was a bit of work, but manageable. I had a 5-speed mount to match, though, which made it easier than trying to build from scratch. I have not tried to use the 4-speed shifter and front box, though.
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I am a high-functioning autistic into VW diesels and Vanagons along with other things that are unrelated to this site.

[davevickery]

This one has been on ebay for quite a while. The gearing might be different, but worth knowing about if you are considering one.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-VW-Vanagon-Factory-Reb...mp;vxp=mtr

[syncrodoka]

[Can1]

Thanks for all the posts, it might be back to the drawing board. I guess I'm trying to get more out of my engine than might be possible. I just want to be able to cruise at 75MPH (on flats) without feeling that I'm over-reving the engine. 65MPH now is sort of the top cruising speed and I wanted a little more top end.

Now that its time for a new transmission for me, I thought I would be able to address this But it looks like even going to from my 2.1 to a 2.2L rebuild may not be enough to push this brick

Thanks

[Can1]

[Terry Kay]

What's wrong with 75 mph on the flats?
That engine was made to run at big RPM.
This is how it was mfg. to operate.

Run bigger diameter wheels & tires to slow the engine down a little within it's useful powerband.
A couple hundred rpm goes a long way.

That engine wasn't made to lug down & pull itself back up like a John Deere, or Mack truck.
_________________
T.K.

[hdenter]

Putting a 5spd trans in my weekender van was the best thing I have done to it. I have to climb a 2 mile grade every day in my vans. Having to down shift into 3rd and climb at 45mph sucks and can be dangerous when idiots try speeding past slower traffic by using the slow lane and then barely moving back over before rear ending me. I run stock engines and the 5spd breaks up the tall gearing of the 4spd trans as it relates to the low power wbxer. Now, when I get to The Grade, I down shift into 4th and motor up the hill at 55mph and 3500rpm along with the flow of traffic. First gear does get used up in a hurry, but I don't mind the early shifting. IMO, the 5spd should have been the standard trans here in the US as it was often used in Europe. Mine was out of a 1.6TD and has a 4.83 R&P, perfect for my 1.9. For shifting, I had planned on modifying the 4spd shifter and there is a way to do that and still lock out reverse. However, I started driving it without the shifter box and didn't have a problem with staying out of reverse while shifting or any other problems... Not the best solution, but I'm the only one who drives that van. I have an AAP in my garage that will go into my wife's van. It has the 4.57 Ring. For her, I will be tracking down the proper 5spd shifter. My 5spds where purchased used and didn't cost my anywhere close to $3k. If the extra money is in your budget, go for it! You won't regret i

Hans.
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'79 triple white convertible bug
'84 sunroof vanagon
'85 weekender

[Ahwahnee]

[AndyBees]

[hdenter]

I don't mind getting close to red line here and there for shifting, but having to do it for extended periods of time to keep up with traffic is not my idea of fun. The 5spd lets me go 10mph faster for the same rpm. The difference is going 50mph at 4000rpm or 60mph at 4000rpm while climbing a 7% grade.

I wouldn't go back to a 4spd unless I had the horses to pull the grade in 4th.

Hans
_________________
'79 triple white convertible bug
'84 sunroof vanagon
'85 weekender

[Can1]

Thanks for the heads up regarding the shifting into reverse Syncrodoka. I may try to find 5 speed linkage (if its even possible)

They way I look at it to make things simple, here are the final ratios (taking into consideration the ring and pinion.

Stock 4 speed vs Potential 5 speed
1 2 3 4 5th
18.37 10.01 6.12 4.13
16.97 8.79 6.11 4.21 3.51

The way I look at it, the 1st 4 gears are both pretty close on both transmissions.

I have thought about not having enough power in 5th, but I have been thinking that I won't be accelerating in 5th, just maintaining a cruising speed. Any acceleration or passing would be done in 4th or 3rd.

Cruising at 75MPH with the 4 speed on factory tires is 4000RPM, the 5 speed would put me at 3400RPM.

At 65MPH the 4 speed would turn the engine at 3470, with the 5 speed at 2949. So I think that anything under 65MPH would lug the 5 speed and you would need to downshift.

So I'm going to see where my budget takes me and if I can work the 5 speed into the build then I'll do it. If not, then its a base rebuild on the trans, and maybe bigger tires

[MarkWard]

I have a 4.13 ring and pinion with a .77 4th. It is mated to a TDI 100 hp and 150 torque measured at the wheels. That set up was too tall for even long slightly uphill interstate grades. It was fine in Florida, but once we got out west, it was just too tall.

I ended up installing larger nozzles and now the gearing is fine. Have not been back on the dyno though.

My point is you can go too tall for even a larger engine. I don't quite understand your last posted ratios, but even with the taller ring and pinion in my 091/1, first gear gets used up pretty quickly leaving from a stop. Gear spacing is fine for the gears including the spacing between stock 3rd and the slightly overdrive 4th. In other words, not sure where I would stick an extra ratio.