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gdawg
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2010
Posts: 6
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 Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:15 pm Post subject: Axle Nut Came Off and then the wheel and then... |
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Quite a story here and I hope a lesson for others. We just got back from a two week road trip in our 87 Westy Vanagon GL. For months before the trip I did everything to ensure as trouble free a trip as could be possible. I started by having my regular mechanic check the vehicle over and they performed several repairs.
Amongst the items done were brakes, three months prior to the trip / 126,400 miles. They did the following: replace front brake pads, resurface front brake rotors, replace 2nd gear brake band piston cover o-rings. Rear brakes were found to be fine.
About two weeks before the trip I had the coolant flushed and replaced at 127,700, this time not by my regular shop but a more conveniently located shop (good rep and work on Westy's sometimes) in close proximity to my work. I asked them to also check out the vehicle in general - a "second opinion" of sorts. They did so and stated the following on their invoice. "Found right rear hub was loose, spacer washer was missing and replaced, checked ok. Notes: Front brakes are over 50% good. Rear brakes like new. Everything checks out."
Fast forward to Wednesday last week. About 129k on the van now. We're rolling at about 45mph on a straight, level road into Lassen National Park. All of a sudden - with no warning, no shudder, no NOTHING, the right rear end suddenly drops. I see sparks out the side view mirror as we quickly and literally grind to a halt. As my wife and I shake our heads in shock we see the wheel and tire go by down the middle of the road, veering this way and that before finally bouncing off the road and coming to a rest. Amazingly no other vehicles involved in this, no curves in the road, no hills, no drop offs, - this situation could have been so much worse.
As I am returning to the van from retrieving the wheel/tire, I notice smoke on the side of the road about 100 yards back from where the van is resting. The sparks had started a fire! I grabbed my fire extinguisher and with the help of my wife and several bystanders managed to extinguish the fast igniting blaze. (Local forest service fire crew checked it and thoroughly doused later on.)
What happened? Upon inspection I could see the axle nut had backed out. It was still inside the wheel center in fact with the front brake drum and bolts still attached via the wheel nuts to the wheel. Wheel and tire were undamaged. The rear backing plate was obviously severely damaged. Long story short, a long tow to Redding, two days of waiting for parts and repairs and we were back on the road.
Point is, this incident did not need to happen. In the course of three months, two separate mechanics had looked at rear brakes. Was the cotter pin missing? Did it break? Why was the axle nut so loose? If I had focused on the rear hubs maybe I would have noticed something amiss. I was far more focused on engine and other components.
Here's my question for forum members. Do I have a point of contention with either shop? Any similar experiences? Insights welcome! |
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Mathew Zelezen
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Joined: November 04, 2004
Posts: 557
Location: Graeagle, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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When I was a kid I saw a Herbie movie where this happened!
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buildyourown
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2009
Posts: 1668
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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Was there a sheared cotter pin in the hole?
If not, I would bet a mechanic simply forgot to put the pin in. Probably never took the nut to torque either.
What did the other side look like? Cotter pin? Proper torque? |
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Alaric.H
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Joined: March 28, 2009
Posts: 2529
Location: Sandy Springs GA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| I did some rear wheel bearing on Heftysmurfs syncro and I we used a 2 foot breaker bar to tighten the rear axle nut. I got a call a couple of days ago that the nut had come loose and ruined the wheel bearing se.t I feel bad about it but I am happy no body got hurt.I have been on Ebay bidding on 600ft lb toque wrenches and they are pricey buggers. |
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stevey88
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Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: Fremont, SF Bay Area
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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The second garage screwed it up. Obviously the mechanic does not know anything about Vanagon ( at least know less than me ). There is no " spacer washer " at the rear of the Vanagon. What he may have found is your rear wheel bearing is slightly worn but it will still last a few thousand miles until it make noises. Putting an extra washer should not do anything to the rear hub but the missing cotter pin will cause what you have experienced. If the cotter pin is there and the axle nut back out, the remainder of the cotter pin should still inside the hole of the rear axle. The other thing is how tight did he torque the axle nuts ? Should be 360 ft/lb.
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syncrodoka
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Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12438
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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The cotter key or some piece if it will be in the same area as the axle nut. If there is no sign of it then the mechanic screwed up bad.
Like stevey88 said there isn't a spacer washer in the rear. |
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Volksaholic
Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2005
Posts: 1771
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| buildyourown wrote: |
Was there a sheared cotter pin in the hole?
If not, I would bet a mechanic simply forgot to put the pin in. Probably never took the nut to torque either.
What did the other side look like? Cotter pin? Proper torque? |
Yeah... I have been driving and working on old VWs for about 30 years now and my money says there is no possible way for the cotter pin to shear or fall out if the hub nut is properly torqued and the pin is bent into place. I mean NO POSSIBLE WAY. And what's this about a spacer?
One thing to note.. as the rear wheels loosen up you'll usually get some knocking that sounds a little like a CV going out while cornering & such.
I'm glad to hear nobody was hurt... that shop near your work owes you the price of the Redding shop's work, 2 nights' lodging, and a pitcher of beer.
Paul
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gdawg
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2010
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a pic of what was in the wheel center besides the axle nut (after retrieving 200 yards up the highway.)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=704440
I am posting here because having a wheel come off can kill you. My main interest is in providing information that can stop this from happening to others. Herbie jokes are not helpful to anyone. |
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wjjr
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Joined: June 26, 2010
Posts: 132
Location: Tampa, Fl
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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WOW!! That blows, thank god it wasn't on a turn in some mountainous area!! Glad you survived!!!
I went around to each and every wheel before and several times during our trip to Baltimore/DC/northern Virginia, not out west mountains, but still want your wheel to stay on mountians!!!
Years ago I took a girl's car to change the oversized tires to a place right off I275 and at the last second I decided to go the back way home, not the interstate, about a mile and a half down the road I slowed for a stoplight and the left rear dropped and the wheel rolled right before my eyes THRU cross street trafffic and hit/bounced/hit again a car in the oncoming lane across the street!!! 3 rather large "gangsta" type fellows in it freaking out!! I jumped out, quickly explained that I just had the tires changed moments ago and that we should get my car of the road and raise HELL!!! That they did I assure you!!! Free tires for me, body work and WHOLE paint job for them!!
SCARY as hell!!! Glad I didn't take the interstate!!!
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SteveVanB
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Joined: June 01, 2008
Posts: 1645
Location: This side of Daytona
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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That sure looks like a pieco 'o' cotter pin in your pic. My bet is they took off the nut, added the magical spacer then torqued it to something waaaaay less than spec.
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gdawg
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2010
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| In order to check rear brakes on a Westy wouldn't a mechanic have to remove cotter pin and take off axle nut to look inside the drum? |
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insyncro
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Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry to hear this.
Yeap a big torque wrench or 3/4" impact is manditory. |
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SteveVanB
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Joined: June 01, 2008
Posts: 1645
Location: This side of Daytona
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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No. The drum is not part of the hub. It may well have been rusted on there and the mech. found it easier to pull the hub off though. It is a very common occurance, the rusted on drum.
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James 93SLC
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Joined: January 21, 2009
Posts: 937
Location: NE Ohio
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| gdawg wrote: |
| In order to check rear brakes on a Westy wouldn't a mechanic have to remove cotter pin and take off axle nut to look inside the drum? |
Nope. No need to remove the pin and nut unless the drums are absolutely seized to the hub.
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91 Vanagon Carat
93 Corrado SLC
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tencentlife "Sometimes a pooka is a problem and sometimes it's just a pooka" |
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syncrodoka
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Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12438
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| It is easier to do the brakes without the hub in place, but not necessary. |
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insyncro
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Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| syncrodoka wrote: |
| It is easier to do the brakes without the hub in place, but not necessary. |
Agreed.
I pull the hub to allow removal of the backing plate.
I clean everything while I'm in there. |
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Mofus
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Joined: February 21, 2008
Posts: 369
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:43 am Post subject: |
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Hey, I'll be there in two weeks. I'll look for a gouge in the road.
In all seriousness though I feel your pain man. Similar thing happened to me, but it was my own stupid fault. I failed to tighten the lug nuts on my left rear wheel after my Suby install. Maiden voyage three blocks from home the wheel came off. I guess we are members of a small club who know what it feels like to have the back end of your van fall to the ground as the wheel rolls on by.
Have there been any lasting effects after the shop fixed it up for you? Just curious. I hear a pulsing noise when I brake. I've rebuilt them twice, new bearings, etc, but the noise persists. I wonder if I damaged the hub.
This vacation will be the first long road trip with my Vanagon. Wish me luck. I upgraded to AAA 200 mile towing just in case  . Lassen, Shasta, Crater Lake, Lost Coast...home.
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gdawg
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2010
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:50 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like a nice trip. We hung in Shasta while waiting for repair and Crater Lake was very cool. Gouge and forest floor burn marks will be near Old Station on north side of park.  You'll see why we were so glad it happened there after you travel all those other roads.
Reached a reasonable financial compromise with shop that tightened rear hub and added mysterious washer. Nice to know that a reasonable discussion and gentleman's shake is still achievable in our litigious society.
Lessons:
1) Go to Westy/Vanagon experts. This shop is a good shop but they work on most everything and don't see Vanagon's every day.
2) Be sure your rear hubs are tightened to spec and that a fresh cotter pin is put in anytime taken apart.
Question: Any experience out there with rear hubs chronically loosening? Should these things be checked every 500 miles? I can say with no doubt that if I had known this could be an issue I would have been pulling into shops with high impact wrenches every 500 miles on this trip! |
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smokin_dodge
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Joined: April 06, 2008
Posts: 169
Location: East Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| gdawg wrote: |
Question: Any experience out there with rear hubs chronically loosening? Should these things be checked every 500 miles? I can say with no doubt that if I had known this could be an issue I would have been pulling into shops with high impact wrenches every 500 miles on this trip! |
hubs that show characteristics of loosening repeatedly, normally indicate fatigue in some part of the hub/bearing - there is not telling what could cause it but you have to remember - parts to wear out, especially on 20+ year old vans....
best thing to do is at regular intervals (50K miles or so) either take it to a shop and watch them dissasemble the rear hubs and replace with new parts, or take them apart yourself.
as far as torquing goes - if you read in bently, they recommend putting the breaker bar on the ground and backing the van onto the bar - using a 3000lb+ van is so much better than trying to do it by hand.
i also recommend staying away from an impact wrench for 1 reason - its a hammer impact mechanism, so instead of putting moving force on the nut its "hammering" the nut in place. best thing to do (and what all tire shops do) is use the impact to close to 300-325ft lbs, then tighten the wrest with a torque wrench to i believe 375ftlbs. also by using an impact wrench you can cause premature fatigue in the nut/bolt if its not designed with impact in mind.....(ive snapped off studs with impacts under 50lbs before....)
Even if the part looks fine - it is still possible to stretch over time. another reason to constantly keep up the maintnence on the van.
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Last edited by smokin_dodge on Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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gdawg
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Joined: June 15, 2010
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Meant to say torque not impact wrench. Appreciate the need for and do diligently maintain my van - keep in mind this incident came about through the effort to maintain....still stuff can happen...
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