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Hekkie
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2008
Posts: 30
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 Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2025 10:45 pm Post subject: Subaru EJ20 in an 1969 411LE |
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I'm wondering if it's possible to install a Subaru EJ20 engine in a 1969 VW 411 LE.
I think a KEP adapter plate will fit the gearbox, but what about the flywheel? Has anyone looked into this?
I know I'll be asked what to do about the radiator, but I want to solve the flywheel "problem" first.
I'm not saying I'll do it; this is just an inventory of the possibilities and limitations. |
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wagen19
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 877
Location: germany
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2025 3:16 am Post subject: Re: Subaru EJ20 in an 1969 411LE |
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| Hekkie wrote: |
I'm wondering if it's possible to install a Subaru EJ20 engine in a 1969 VW 411 LE.
I think a KEP adapter plate will fit the gearbox, but what about the flywheel? Has anyone looked into this?
I know I'll be asked what to do about the radiator, but I want to solve the flywheel "problem" first.
I'm not saying I'll do it; this is just an inventory of the possibilities and limitations. |
I don´t know the KEP adapter.
Is your car a shifter or automatic version?
If it´s a shifter version with orig type 4 trans, think about:
The trans shaft of type 4 is longer than type 1 trans (type 4 needle bearing is inside of crank) (shaft could be shortened)
The splines of type 4 trans shaft are different as type 1, 2, 3.
So I assume, you are in need of a type 4 clutch disc, which is not that easy to find.
(The very long type 4 trans shaft seems to be not that solid, as the shafts of type 1, 2, 3 and Porsche trans versions. The max tolerable torque is unknown for me)
There were type 4 clutches with 200, 210 and 215 mm.
Suggest to go for 215 flywheel and clutch system, if possible.
If you can get a flywheel that fits a Subaru engine to correspond with a type 1 trans and clutch, you only need a fitting clutch disc and eventually have to shorten the trans shaft.
(I do not know about the essential centered guide for type 4 trans shaft in "your" Subaru system.)
But, as a joke, better water in head, than in engine! (using a 1999 VW Golf 4 as a good winter car)
With luck, maybe you can find a still good, for old 911 not that interesting and less expensive 2,0, 2,2 or 2,4 l 911 T engine with carbs.
That could be a "period" power upgrade with less body hack job needed for cooling and heating system.
And already the VW 411 E engine has PORSCHE DNA. |
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Hekkie
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2008
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2025 8:09 am Post subject: Re: Subaru EJ20 in an 1969 411LE |
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Hello,
Thanks for your quick reply.
I have a manual transmission.
I've seen the problems you mentioned before, but I just want to see if anyone has any ideas. Sancho from the Ugly Duck has done it before. Unfortunately, I can't get in touch with him.
I also considered installing a Porsche 914 or T2 6-rib gearbox, but I heard it's a major operation.
I know this is pure horror for the purists, but I just want to see what's possible.
And Porsche engines are way too expensive, so that's not an option.
Regards, JP |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23497
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2025 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Subaru EJ20 in an 1969 411LE |
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| Hekkie wrote: |
Hello,
Thanks for your quick reply.
I have a manual transmission.
I've seen the problems you mentioned before, but I just want to see if anyone has any ideas. Sancho from the Ugly Duck has done it before. Unfortunately, I can't get in touch with him.
I also considered installing a Porsche 914 or T2 6-rib gearbox, but I heard it's a major operation.
I know this is pure horror for the purists, but I just want to see what's possible.
And Porsche engines are way too expensive, so that's not an option.
Regards, JP |
A couple of items....
While the 004 manual transmission mainshaft is...kind of thin...compared to that of a bus in a 002 or 091....it is extrememly strong and tough. It is...to use a word common to Rainer Gunzler  ....very "elastic" almost like a spring steel. Much harder to break than one thinks from pure torque along....but the purely smaller splines will probably not take to shock loading or drag starts. I do not think the HP from the Subaru engine will be a problem. I think how its driven "could" be.
I have not yet seen anyone install a Porsche transaxle successfully. The project has been started a few times by various people. What ever trans you start with must have the shifter output on the lower side of the tailcone like a 004 or you will have issues working around the rear beam. Lot of fabbing.
Also have to add....not sure about in Europe but yes, the 004 clutch discs while impossible to find at a standard commerical chain auto parts store....there are surprisingly many out in the wild new in the box. I am always surprised by thsi considering how few of the manual cars actually were shipped to the US (my findings are somewhere along the lines of 4000 to 4500 with manual trans in the US).
I just found one on Ebay in the box for $59 US. While its is a 210mm...it can be used with a 215 flywheel and pressure palte and simply rebuilt as a 215 when it wears out (same hub and plate).
https://www.ebay.com/itm/155309913515?_skw=vw+part...R5K7t5DYZg
Ray
Ray |
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412STi
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2015
Posts: 31
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2025 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Subaru EJ20 in an 1969 411LE |
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Hi
Don't worry about what others think.
With truly rare vehicles, I raise my eyebrows too. But with mass-produced cars (which they once were), I'm relaxed about it.
Anything is possible.
A Subaru EJ engine fits in the Type 4.
In the Beetle and Bus (T2/T3), it's practically standard production.
There are already tons of special parts available for it.
I'm currently installing an EJ 2.0T, including a Subaru transmission, in my 412 Variant.
Why a Subaru transmission?
Quite simply, the VW 4-speed is already slightly overwhelmed with the original 80 hp. And with the Subaru's 125 hp (or 250 hp in my case), it's even more so.
Add to that the clutch issue.
There's a solution for the Beetle, but it can only be partially applied to the 411/412.
Different mounting parts are needed for the Subaru transmission.
I made them myself.
The rear axle carrier needs to be modified.
The shift rod too, but that's quite easy.
The engine mount is the one specifically made for the T3 by LMB.
And so on and so forth...
Of course, you could also install a Porsche 6-cylinder engine, like Hans-Olav Strand did.
http://www.vwnorge.no/index.php/topic,41241.0.html
and on Facebook
Whether I'll ever get mine finished and on the road, I can't say.
At the moment, I'm close to finishing my brother-in-law's 1303 (Super Beetle). 2.2 Subaru plus Subaru 5-speed transmission.
https://www.instagram.com/p/DH4Ag4GO4d3/
_________________
Gerold
The morning brings a mystery, the evening makes it history
The oil can not be, was none in it. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23497
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2025 10:45 am Post subject: Re: Subaru EJ20 in an 1969 411LE |
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| 412STi wrote: |
Hi
Don't worry about what others think.
With truly rare vehicles, I raise my eyebrows too. But with mass-produced cars (which they once were), I'm relaxed about it.
Anything is possible.
A Subaru EJ engine fits in the Type 4.
In the Beetle and Bus (T2/T3), it's practically standard production.
There are already tons of special parts available for it.
I'm currently installing an EJ 2.0T, including a Subaru transmission, in my 412 Variant.
Why a Subaru transmission?
Quite simply, the VW 4-speed is already slightly overwhelmed with the original 80 hp. And with the Subaru's 125 hp (or 250 hp in my case), it's even more so.
Add to that the clutch issue.
There's a solution for the Beetle, but it can only be partially applied to the 411/412.
Different mounting parts are needed for the Subaru transmission.
I made them myself.
The rear axle carrier needs to be modified.
The shift rod too, but that's quite easy.
The engine mount is the one specifically made for the T3 by LMB.
And so on and so forth...
Of course, you could also install a Porsche 6-cylinder engine, like Hans-Olav Strand did.
http://www.vwnorge.no/index.php/topic,41241.0.html
and on Facebook
Whether I'll ever get mine finished and on the road, I can't say.
At the moment, I'm close to finishing my brother-in-law's 1303 (Super Beetle). 2.2 Subaru plus Subaru 5-speed transmission. |
Agree!...with everything ut the manual trans being overwhelmed by 80hp.
I have driven these 004 manual transmissions well over 400,000 miles collectively. My last engine with high miles and hard driving had slightly over 100hp. It is not hp and torque that the 004 has any problem with in car of this weight.
Its ONLY issues are some design problems with oiling that it has. What will kill a 004 at high miles and needs to be corrected are these items:
1. It needs either a secondary oiling hole or force fed oiling on the counter gear cluster. This problem alone accounts for the vast majority of early death on these transmission. It has a single dead end oil hole feeding two needle bearing sets.
A simpel mod that helps no matter which way you go is to replace the needle bearing with solid torlon bushings and file oil outlet grooves in teh first and fourth counter gear faces. That takes minutes.
2. Proper adjustment and support for the transmission. There is a detailed procedure for suspension of the transmission and adjustment of its position that appears in only one manual (and its a poor manual).
Without this adjustment being properly done or at least checked EVERY TIME the powertrain is removed....it will die an early death no matter which engine is connected to it.
This is a long transmission with a very long main shaft. without proper positional adjustment, the flex of the case causes wear to the mainshaft stack.
However, the biggest drawback of keeping a 004 manual transmission is that outside of bearings...there are virtually 0 parts available.
Its an excellent transmission. Not weak....but very finiky with regard to having proper adjustment on everything. It has no tolerance outside of this.
I actually have few issues with people modifying a 411 or 412....especially with those doing well engineered and carefull ycrafted re-engine or modification.
When I take issue is when we get the occasional person who shows up in the forums every few years wit han otherwise nice example of the car....and wants to do something really stupid and destructive...on the cheap. If thats all you want to do....do it to a beetle. I can find 100 examples of those for every 1 i find of type 4. Ray |
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wagen19
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 877
Location: germany
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2025 10:49 am Post subject: Re: Subaru EJ20 in an 1969 411LE |
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| Hekkie wrote: |
Hello,
Thanks for your quick reply.
I have a manual transmission.
I've seen the problems you mentioned before, but I just want to see if anyone has any ideas. Sancho from the Ugly Duck has done it before. Unfortunately, I can't get in touch with him.
I also considered installing a Porsche 914 or T2 6-rib gearbox, but I heard it's a major operation.
I know this is pure horror for the purists, but I just want to see what's possible.
And Porsche engines are way too expensive, so that's not an option.
Regards, JP |
1.) Easy peacy "Bolt-on-solution":
To keep the efforts and budget as low as possible, I assume, under "normal circumstances" an upgraded type 4 engine could be the best solution.
Maybe you have also a look to the 914 forum to create a "unexpensive" type 4 engine.
Imo, a 2,0 or 2,1 l based on 94 or 96 x 71 mm parts with a ratio of around 9,0 with dual carbs or D-jet, maybe a aftermarket cam can bring around 100 hp.
2.) "Radical hack job, weld-in-solution":
For me, I´ve not seen a really good solution of a sufficiant cooling system for watercooled old VW´s.
Brainstorming only, now fasten your seat belts:
a) find a complete 924 or 944 rear axle
b) cut out or find a complete 911 torsion bar tube, rear axle and body area, eventually incl. engine compartment with engine mounts.
Yes, it´s a challenge to sort all things up and a lot of welding job would be needed.
Here, one of the targets can be, to install a 901 5 speed trans.
Maybe you want to check, if it´s possible, or make it possible to install a Porsche rear axle and more interesting items.
To improve the braking system would also be a good thing. |
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412STi
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2015
Posts: 31
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2025 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Subaru EJ20 in an 1969 411LE |
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Hi Ray
Everything you're saying might be correct.
I didn't even get that far into the '04 and went straight to the Subaru.
Simply because everything always takes me forever, and I don't want to have to rebuild everything again because of a potential gearbox failure.
_ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ -
The 612RS has a Porsche 5-speed gearbox installed.
Take a look at the pictures; you can roughly see what all needs to be done.
These things are ridiculously expensive these days and, compared to the original or Subaru gearboxes, are real heavy metal. That's my opinion.
You don't necessarily have to tune an engine to get 100 hp. A 2.0 from the 914 already has that.
If you want more, you should go for a 2.3 to 3.0. But then you'd need a carburetor, because the original EFI can only handle a maximum of 2.1.
Citroën once had a 2.3 boxer engine with a DJET (I think it was in the 70s), but you can't find them anymore, and besides, they're ancient junk with no spare parts available. As far as I remember, others have already researched all of this.
Creating something special isn't easy these days. And above all, it's very, very expensive.
I don't mean to lecture anyone here.
I'm just sharing my thoughts, some of which are based on my memory (which might be wrong).
_________________
Gerold
The morning brings a mystery, the evening makes it history
The oil can not be, was none in it. |
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412STi
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2015
Posts: 31
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2025 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Subaru EJ20 in an 1969 411LE |
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With this adapter set, installing an EJ engine in a 411/412 with the original transmission might work.
The flywheel is only made to order anyway, so we could check if any modifications/adjustments are necessary (for the 210/215 clutch).
https://www.zanzinger-automobiltechnik.de/LMB-Adapterset-fuer-Subaru-EJ-Motoren/010-051
_________________
Gerold
The morning brings a mystery, the evening makes it history
The oil can not be, was none in it. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23497
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2025 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Subaru EJ20 in an 1969 411LE |
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| 412STi wrote: |
Hi Ray
Everything you're saying might be correct.
I didn't even get that far into the '04 and went straight to the Subaru.
Simply because everything always takes me forever, and I don't want to have to rebuild everything again because of a potential gearbox failure.
_ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ -
The 612RS has a Porsche 5-speed gearbox installed.
Take a look at the pictures; you can roughly see what all needs to be done.
These things are ridiculously expensive these days and, compared to the original or Subaru gearboxes, are real heavy metal. That's my opinion.
You don't necessarily have to tune an engine to get 100 hp. A 2.0 from the 914 already has that.
If you want more, you should go for a 2.3 to 3.0. But then you'd need a carburetor, because the original EFI can only handle a maximum of 2.1.
Citroën once had a 2.3 boxer engine with a DJET (I think it was in the 70s), but you can't find them anymore, and besides, they're ancient junk with no spare parts available. As far as I remember, others have already researched all of this.
Creating something special isn't easy these days. And above all, it's very, very expensive.
I don't mean to lecture anyone here.
I'm just sharing my thoughts, some of which are based on my memory (which might be wrong). |
Yes. A European 2.0L has 100hp if you can find ones. If not, now that 2.0L 914 head castings are available again....you can build one.
With a 1.7L....its also not very hard to get to 100hp.
This really all comes down to what you want to do with the 411 or 412 and how much hp does that require. With a type 4 1.8L or 2.0L you can tune to make 125hp.
Above that....short of turbocharger and other exotics.....it takes more displacement. That is where you are going.
I also am similar in the mind to wagen19. I always ask those who are modifying a 411 or 412 and shooting for hp above 150.....if they have ever driven a 914 or a 411/412 sedan with 100hp. The 411 and 412 sedans are within 100 lbs of the same weight as a 914.
While the 1 through 4 gears are quite different from the 1 through 5 gears of the 1.7L 914.....the final drive of the 004 from the 411/412....rewards better than stock torque compared to the 914. The 004 had final drive ratios of 3.73:1 and later 3.91:1 compared to the 4.42:1 on the 1.7L 914.
Getting to 90+ hp in the 411 with its manual transmission opens up a very different horiz9n of driving. Ray |
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wagen19
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 877
Location: germany
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2025 12:55 am Post subject: Re: Subaru EJ20 in an 1969 411LE |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| 412STi wrote: |
Hi Ray
Everything you're saying might be correct.
I didn't even get that far into the '04 and went straight to the Subaru.
Simply because everything always takes me forever, and I don't want to have to rebuild everything again because of a potential gearbox failure.
_ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ -
The 612RS has a Porsche 5-speed gearbox installed.
Take a look at the pictures; you can roughly see what all needs to be done.
These things are ridiculously expensive these days and, compared to the original or Subaru gearboxes, are real heavy metal. That's my opinion.
You don't necessarily have to tune an engine to get 100 hp. A 2.0 from the 914 already has that.
If you want more, you should go for a 2.3 to 3.0. But then you'd need a carburetor, because the original EFI can only handle a maximum of 2.1.
Citroën once had a 2.3 boxer engine with a DJET (I think it was in the 70s), but you can't find them anymore, and besides, they're ancient junk with no spare parts available. As far as I remember, others have already researched all of this.
Creating something special isn't easy these days. And above all, it's very, very expensive.
I don't mean to lecture anyone here.
I'm just sharing my thoughts, some of which are based on my memory (which might be wrong). |
Yes. A European 2.0L has 100hp if you can find ones. If not, now that 2.0L 914 head castings are available again....you can build one.
With a 1.7L....its also not very hard to get to 100hp.
This really all comes down to what you want to do with the 411 or 412 and how much hp does that require. With a type 4 1.8L or 2.0L you can tune to make 125hp.
Above that....short of turbocharger and other exotics.....it takes more displacement. That is where you are going.
I also am similar in the mind to wagen19. I always ask those who are modifying a 411 or 412 and shooting for hp above 150.....if they have ever driven a 914 or a 411/412 sedan with 100hp. The 411 and 412 sedans are within 100 lbs of the same weight as a 914.
While the 1 through 4 gears are quite different from the 1 through 5 gears of the 1.7L 914.....the final drive of the 004 from the 411/412....rewards better than stock torque compared to the 914. The 004 had final drive ratios of 3.73:1 and later 3.91:1 compared to the 4.42:1 on the 1.7L 914.
Getting to 90+ hp in the 411 with its manual transmission opens up a very different horiz9n of driving. Ray |
Aha!
I totally agree!
To next adress:
To bring an old type 4 on the road, a rusted body and some rare parts are the main challenge.
If a good runing stock engine is not enough, an individual engine based on 2,0 l bus or 914, has just a bit more torque, even with a mild or a stock cam.
Of course, that does not make a 411/412 a race car, but a 90 to 100 hp 2,0 l german "Ackergaul" engine, completely fitting in a untouched stock engine compartment of a type 4 "Variant", is rather easy to create and not that tired, as someone may think. |
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hulken
Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2009
Posts: 96
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2025 3:17 am Post subject: Re: Subaru EJ20 in an 1969 411LE |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
I have not yet seen anyone install a Porsche transaxle successfully. The project has been started a few times by various people. What ever trans you start with must have the shifter output on the lower side of the tailcone like a 004 or you will have issues working around the rear beam. Lot of fabbing.
Ray |
There are two cars in Norway with Porsche transaxle. One of the cars is the VW-Porsche 612 RS I think many of you have seen pictures of. He is using a Porsche 930 transaxle. You can se at lott of pictures on his Facebook-page; https://www.facebook.com/VwPorsche612Rs
The other car is a 1974 412 two door, with a 915 transaxle and a 2.4 liter type 4 engine. This car has been street drivn for several years.
_________________
Follow me on Instagram: vw412carrera |
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