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modok
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26796
Location: Colorado Springs
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 Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2023 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: What do you recommend for a good valve cover gasket |
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Look on rock auto you see some interesting things
There is a mahle/clevite gasket, maybe that one is worth a try.
The fel-pro gasket is 1/8 thick instead of 4mm
There are TWO different elring gaskets?
And they have a one year warranty 
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/volkswagen,197...sket,10710 |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21521
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2023 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: What do you recommend for a good valve cover gasket |
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Yep, I like Rockauto for a number of reasons but you MUST know your parts and the differences between them within the brands because they have so many choices.
Here is an interesting take from Mahle asto WHY cork rubber gaskets are even used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUDALRw3esw
The other issue that I am seeing...and I will post some numbers tomorrow....is that as the guy in that video notes (and my buddies at more than one large automotive mfg have shown me) ...rubberized cork ain't what it used to be.
Some of it is far better (newer rubber types) and some of it is far worse (sloppier mfg even with better materials).
Because of difference in rubber and cork quality....the durometer (hardness) is different on some types of cork sheet.
This goes back to exactly what the Mahle guy was talking about. If the gasket is too hard....it cannot compress to seal. I will erad durometer on teh gaskets I have and see what we get.
Here is another interesting video from the chop shop series. What this guy is saying is one of the reasons WHY I adhere the cork gasket to the valve cover.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-5kyDKf8TY
Its because they SHRINK. "Pinning" them to the valve cover with sealant fixes this issue for the most part.
But he also makes the point that you do not want sealant/silicone on the other surface...because then you have to compress that material too.
I disagree with his use of vaseline. Oil of some kind should be used on the head side of the VC gasket (especially on VW's because the heads get so hot) ...I still stay away from bearing grease. Its just too thick in my opinion. But...I guess a lube is a lube and will prevent sticking of the rubber either way.
So why do the rubberized cork gaskets if not oiled ...stick to the head and pull off little flecks (or even chunks) of black stuff?
Because most of them are made of Nitrile rubber (Buna N or Chloroprene) ...and it is only good to 225*F constant with a ~240*F melt point. It literally can melt onto the heads around the cork granules.
This brings up another issue. I got my first VW (a VW 411) in high school in 1978.
I remember that the valve cover gaskets back then were not dirt cheap and also had less shrinkage and sticking issues.
Perhaps....back then....the rubber in the valve cover gaskets was Viton. I know you can buy rubberized cork sheet made with Viton...and silicone...and a wide range orf rubber.
There is also a LOT of cork/neoprene out there which has uses with some refrigeration oils....but will NOT work well with motor oil.
Ray |
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Vanapplebomb
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Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5421
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2023 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: What do you recommend for a good valve cover gasket |
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I use a silicon based grease. Most common silicone greases I have around the shop are Permatex Dielectric grease or AGS Sil-Glyde disc caliper grease. Both work great for cork gaskets and o-rings.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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nextgen
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Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 6035
Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2023 9:42 am Post subject: Re: What do you recommend for a good valve cover gasket |
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One thing we have to keep in mind when buying gaskets.
There is a big difference between T-1 and T-4, T-4 heads are 1/3 larger. When I did gasket replacements on T-1 which was a long time ago, I just installed the gasket, no glue or anything, it fit and no leaks
Noticed on Youtube many Guys go that route, I belive because the Gaskets are smaller and right off fit better.
Another issue, I bought 2 Elring gaskets, the one I screw up fit perfect.
The other one which was not in a sealed plastic was a bit smaller and it was not a T-1 Same company Elring. I put it in warm water then installed it wet into the VC with some Clips. Today removed it and it is fine. Letting it dry out and buying new ones tomorrow.
One video in the UK a the guy that just installed his T-1 no glue, I noticed the gasket pulled out on the top end and he did not see it, he just clamped it in place?
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21521
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2023 10:26 am Post subject: Re: What do you recommend for a good valve cover gasket |
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| nextgen wrote: |
One thing we have to keep in mind when buying gaskets.
There is a big difference between T-1 and T-4, T-4 heads are 1/3 larger. When I did gasket replacements on T-1 which was a long time ago, I just installed the gasket, no glue or anything, it fit and no leaks
Noticed on Youtube many Guys go that route, I belive because the Gaskets are smaller and right off fit better.
Another issue, I bought 2 Elring gaskets, the one I screw up fit perfect.
The other one which was not in a sealed plastic was a bit smaller and it was not a T-1 Same company Elring. I put it in warm water then installed it wet into the VC with some Clips. Today removed it and it is fine. Letting it dry out and buying new ones tomorrow.
One video in the UK a the guy that just installed his T-1 no glue, I noticed the gasket pulled out on the top end and he did not see it, he just clamped it in place? |
I think you are on to PART of the issue with type 4 head gaskets and that they ARE differentand more problematic than type 1. Total length, shape and width.
The type 4 gaskets with two sharp and two round corners, as they age and shrink they distort to a much greater degree and a different way than type 1 gaskets.
I can confirm that back when I drove type 3s I never had any real issues. I did have one that sucked in a gasket in the lower center but that was combined with a PCV issue on the D-jet system.
As I get to where I can post pictures of what I am playing with, you can see that one set of new gaskets that are Victor Reinz from about 2004 and were well stored....have distorted a good deal and are hard to make fit.
And, it's not always to do with the cork itself. Yes, cork granules can dry out and shrink a little and some water can fix that short term, but it will not fix the shrinkage or the hardening of the nitrile or Neoprene rubber holding it together.
The other issue I am seeing at just a glance and I will get a better idea of when I start measuring, is the size of the grind of the cork and the ratio of rubber to cork.
There are many possible unknown quality issues with cork sheet depending on who is making it and how much they give a crap. I was watching a manufacturing video of cork sheet a while back and some manufacturers use a lot of recycled cork in their products. That makes a difference.
Ray |
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nextgen
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Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 6035
Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2023 11:23 am Post subject: Re: What do you recommend for a good valve cover gasket |
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To add to what you said, in my last post I mentioned I placed the gasket in water and it worked out perfect. After saying that I looked at the VC in the area of were the gasket sat. Over night the a few spots rusted. That was due to me sandpapering areas. Not a problem, cleaned up fast, but if you are going to put a VC in storage, that is something to keep in mind.
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rrcade
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Joined: May 29, 2010
Posts: 735
Location: WI 1962 Bug 2276
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2023 11:56 am Post subject: Re: What do you recommend for a good valve cover gasket |
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Stock cork, super duper light smear or grease
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Tom snowden
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Joined: October 29, 2015
Posts: 55
Location: San Jose
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2023 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: What do you recommend for a good valve cover gasket |
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| Sorry for the delay, Classic steel body is the only one selling steel core gaskets. Just google classic steel body valve cover gaskets and it should come up. Don’t know how to post the link😬 |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21521
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2023 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: What do you recommend for a good valve cover gasket |
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| Tom snowden wrote: |
| Sorry for the delay, Classic steel body is the only one selling steel core gaskets. Just google classic steel body valve cover gaskets and it should come up. Don’t know how to post the link😬 |
Here it is
https://classicsteelbody.com/products/valve-cover-gasket-set-vw-1600-engine
Cool! so its 1.5mm or cork on each side of a 22 gauge (0.7mm) thick sheet steel core.
So they are 3.7mm thick. I am betting with two layers of adhesive they are right at 4mm thick. I just measured a Victor Reinz type 4 gasket and its right at 4mm.
I have only one issue with those gaskets. Its NOT mainly the fact that they are $39 a pair. Its that they are $39 a pair and they are still cork.
Rubberized cork starts getting hard after about 15k miles of heat cycling.
I guess they solve the problem of gaskets distorting and sucling in....but so does 20 cents worth of RTV on the valve cover side on regular cork gaskets.
But thanks for the link!
On another note I just bought a set of Fel Pro type 4 gaskets today just to play around with for this thread. They are part # Vs 26084 C
Guess what....same problem they have had for all of my life. They are only 3.15mm thick. Thats 21%+ THINNER than the 4.0mm they should be
I have never been able to get Fel Pro thin cork gaskets to seal on a type 4.
Ray |
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nextgen
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Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 6035
Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2023 5:59 pm Post subject: Re: What do you recommend for a good valve cover gasket |
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rrcade,
Your post is simple ( Stock cork, super duper light smear or grease ) !
The main target is to get the adhesive under and to the side of the gasket. Then clamp it till it dries to prevent it from moving before you can lock the gasket in postion.
Waiting for new gasket to arrive this week. After you read my post, wise me luck, Ha.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21521
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2023 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: What do you recommend for a good valve cover gasket |
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| nextgen wrote: |
rrcade,
Your post is simple ( Stock cork, super duper light smear or grease ) !
The main target is to get the adhesive under and to the side of the gasket. Then clamp it till it dries to prevent it from moving before you can lock the gasket in postion.
Waiting for new gasket to arrive this week. After you read my post, wise me luck, Ha. |
Its also worth noting and asking...how many people have no issues and need to adhesive to the VC....and are mainly type 1?
We had a short discussion this week in the 411/412 forums. The two people who answered only use dry gaskets nothing else and report no issues. Thenagain, how many miles in what period of time and how often do they change gaskets?
Ray |
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nextgen
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21521
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2023 9:37 am Post subject: Re: What do you recommend for a good valve cover gasket |
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| nextgen wrote: |
| As for the Two guys putting the Gaskets dry, It goes to show, like you said, it only takes a small amount to keep the gaskets in place. |
As I posted this morning to that thread in the 411/412 forum....with type 4s...in my experience, it can also matter how meticulous you are in applying the VC to the head....initial positioning so it does not slip sideways that little bit when first lifting the bale....and keeping pressure on it until the bale has enough clamping pressure to hold it still.
I also noted that shortly before I started adhering the gaskets with RTV to the VC....I also bent the little clamp plates on the inside to hold the gasket in place tighter while positioning the VC.
All of it helped ....but back in those days with my daily,/weekly mileage....in 3 weeks I will have to have the cover off again and not be able to get a loose gasket that now has some compression marking on it...back in the same position to seal. So it's a new gasket every month.
Putting the gasket on the VC with RTV insured that I could use the same gasket leak free for a minimum of 5 oil changes and valve checks.
Ray |
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Zed999
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Joined: March 04, 2018
Posts: 1250
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2023 9:57 am Post subject: Re: What do you recommend for a good valve cover gasket |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
As I posted this morning to that thread in the 411/412 forum....with type 4s...in my experience, it can also matter how meticulous you are in applying the VC to the head....initial positioning so it does not slip sideways that little bit when first lifting the bale....and keeping pressure on it until the bale has enough clamping pressure to hold it still.
Ray |
Yep, one of things where every little detail is important. You describe my own approach to fitting the covers and clips - it's a fail if I don't position the cover on the head exactly where it needs to be on the initial approach and a fail if it slips - I start again in both cases - often for nothing but better safe than sorry - I really, really don't like doing this job a second time never mind for the 10th! I am a little obsessive - I jack up the bus and take the wheel off for better access for this job - the long way is often the quicker way if you know what I mean and I'm in my 60's, less inclined to lie on the floor than I used to be.Thought I ought to measure my gasket thickness - 4.25mm. I keep these indoors in a cabinet though must admit that's on a boat so it's possible they swelled up a little from damp. I try and keep dry in here (it's home!) but it's a single glazed steel shelled boat, there's only so much you can do with heat and ventillation.
It's hovering around freezing point here right now - there's another thing - I do not do this in the winter, I pick a nice warm dry summer day. My typical yearly mileage allows that. Haven't serviced it for a few years so next summer... |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21521
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2023 11:30 am Post subject: Re: What do you recommend for a good valve cover gasket |
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| Zed999 wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
As I posted this morning to that thread in the 411/412 forum....with type 4s...in my experience, it can also matter how meticulous you are in applying the VC to the head....initial positioning so it does not slip sideways that little bit when first lifting the bale....and keeping pressure on it until the bale has enough clamping pressure to hold it still.
Ray |
Yep, one of things where every little detail is important. You describe my own approach to fitting the covers and clips - it's a fail if I don't position the cover on the head exactly where it needs to be on the initial approach and a fail if it slips - I start again in both cases - often for nothing but better safe than sorry - I really, really don't like doing this job a second time never mind for the 10th! I am a little obsessive - I jack up the bus and take the wheel off for better access for this job - the long way is often the quicker way if you know what I mean and I'm in my 60's, less inclined to lie on the floor than I used to be.Thought I ought to measure my gasket thickness - 4.25mm. I keep these indoors in a cabinet though must admit that's on a boat so it's possible they swelled up a little from damp. I try and keep dry in here (it's home!) but it's a single glazed steel shelled boat, there's only so much you can do with heat and ventillation.
It's hovering around freezing point here right now - there's another thing - I do not do this in the winter, I pick a nice warm dry summer day. My typical yearly mileage allows that. Haven't serviced it for a few years so next summer... |
^^^^ Oh man! yes! Doing it in freezing weather sucks just getting it fitted up right.
Rubberized cork is like stone below 35* F.
Going back to the original question in this thread...."what to recommend for a good valve cover gasket"....and the points everyone has been making about variations in quality.... , I have a couple of different brands and ages of gasket I am looking at up close, a little last night some more today.
Damn....so far, they are all over the planet. Ray |
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nextgen
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nextgen
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nextgen
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Cusser
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Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 6:24 am Post subject: Re: What do you recommend for a good valve cover gasket |
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I'm constantly "amazed" when a manufacturer of something doesn't get someone to try out the product on a periodic basis, or try the prototype. In this instance, how tough to see how production gasket fits in the genuine VW valve cover????????????
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 7:02 am Post subject: Re: What do you recommend for a good valve cover gasket |
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| Cusser wrote: |
I'm constantly "amazed" when a manufacturer of something doesn't get someone to try out the product on a periodic basis, or try the prototype. In this instance, how tough to see how production gasket fits in the genuine VW valve cover???????????? |
Hey nextgen, for the sake of figuring out issues and helping everyone out including you.....let's take some measurements of these gaskets you are buying and trying.
Thickness, width etc.
Looking at your latest picture....that gasket is REALLY far off.
Questions:
Brand
Part #
Date code on package if any
What you are seeing with that very poor fit...."could" be shrinkage as it looks like the width has suffered as well. But, measure width of both top and bottom of gasket.
But if it has shrunk that much, it will have shrunk in thickness too.
Also, if a cork gasket has shrunk quite a lot, do not do the soaking in water thing....unless the gasket is going to be adhered/glued to the VC....because it's going to shrink when it gets hot. The glue or RTV can only work with so much shrinkage. Ray |
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