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Mauro I Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2023 Posts: 8 Location: England
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Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2023 3:24 pm Post subject: 1973 Super Beetle fuel pump |
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Hi, I bought my first ever beetle in 2020. With no previous experience I have managed to overcome most problems that have arisen, except the fuel pump. Around 6 months ago the car died one day out on the road. I worked out it was the pump and replaced it, the car started. However I upon inspection once the pump was removed I thought it was in fact working. A couple of short trips later the car died again. This time it was obviously the pump and I thought it must have been a faulty pump so I replaced it, the car started. The car was now running better than ever, perfect, really great. A couple of weeks ago I took my son out for a drive, we drove down the road, turned the corner and the car died. I called out the AA, the mechanic was really determined to get the car going for me and spent three hours trying to get the car running. At the time I didn't consider it could be the pump because it was new and had previously been working so well. He couldn't get the car running and so towed me back home. Last weekend I thought I would remove the pump and have look for any obvious signs of a problem. What I found was the lever was stuck up inside the pump base. I released it, squeezed in some more grease and refitted it. The car started straight away. I bought the pump on Ebay, RTG Fuel Pump - Fits Beetle 1960 -1992. The push rod is 108mm which I believe is the correct length. Anyone help. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76976 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2023 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: 1973 Super Beetle fuel pump |
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The 108mm is used with the generator style pump, so which pump do you have?...
Also the aftermarket pumps are low-quality and can fail in short time. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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Beeble1 Samba Member
Joined: August 14, 2012 Posts: 579 Location: Manteno, Illinois
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Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2023 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: 1973 Super Beetle fuel pump |
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Buy yourself a Brazilian made fuel pump, they are much better quality than the cheap aftermarket stuff.
Like Glenn said, make sure you are using the correct pushrod and pump, there are 2 styles: one for alternator, one for generator. _________________ Beeble1, ‘73 Super (o\_|_/o) 1600cc w/ Dealer A/C
Beeble2, ‘13 Beetle 2.5L Daily Driver
Dealership items from Bishop-Wayne Volkswagen & Turner Volkswagen in Kankakee, IL wanted |
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Mauro I Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2023 Posts: 8 Location: England
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Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2023 11:54 pm Post subject: Re: 1973 Super Beetle fuel pump |
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Hi, thanks for your replies. The pump I have is a generator style. I agree with you get what you pay for. I bought the second pump from VW Heritage, a reputable firm, when that broke I bought the more expensive pump on Ebay. I'm happy to pay for the best, but I don't know which pump is the best. |
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OTTO 1303 Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2020 Posts: 638 Location: Louisiana
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 5:20 am Post subject: Re: 1973 Super Beetle fuel pump |
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Mauro I wrote: |
I'm happy to pay for the best, but I don't know which pump is the best. |
Pierburg Square Top (generator style), rebuildable with Wolfsburg West kit.
Shown sitting next to Alternator, using 108mm rod.
Clearance is tight, fits great, good pressure, and no worries.
Good Luck _________________ 74 Super Sun Bug - OTTO
74 Super - DANZIG
74 Super - HERZOG
Last edited by OTTO 1303 on Fri Nov 24, 2023 7:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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stagewex Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2021 Posts: 166 Location: New Rochelle, New York
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 7:35 am Post subject: Re: 1973 Super Beetle fuel pump |
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Is it possible you are getting crap/debris into the pump(s)? Odd that would happen to two (2) in a row?
I was having a similar problem until the indy shop I finally brought it to said fuel tank removal, drain, boil and re-install. What came out was similar to black sand and gunk sitting at the bottom of the tank. Have never had a fuel issue again.
Your bug is a 1973 like mine. That's 50+ years of crap and ethanol. Sometimes good to look "upstream". At least to eliminate that as a possibility.
I'm procrastinating on installing a filter that I have had standing by. Maybe this weekend. |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31396 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 8:13 am Post subject: Re: 1973 Super Beetle fuel pump |
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In 2019, I found this when helping out a local new Samba member who'd purchased a 1972 and had a fuel pump issue. The previous owner or mechanic had installed a slanted fuel pump but didn't change over the steel pushrod to 100mm accordingly. I think I grabbed the end of the pushrod with ViseGrips and hammered up on the pushrod to remove it. The plastic flange remained in place and apparently wasn't damaged.
Fix was using a 108mm steel pushrod and a new non-slanted fuel pump.
_________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Mauro I Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2023 Posts: 8 Location: England
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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2023 4:55 am Post subject: Re: 1973 Super Beetle fuel pump |
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Hi, thank you all for the photos and information. To be clear, I'm using a 108 rod with a straight generator style pump ( as shown in the left illustration Cusser has inserted) as my car is fitted with a new generator. Although the car died on the road, the pump is working and having simply removed the pump and reinstalled it, the car is now running. When I bought the car it came without any history, not a wise move I now realise. I have uncovered many issues created by the previous owner and replaced many parts. Could the previous owner have tampered with the gear or cam that drives the push rod? I'm struggling to find a logical reason to explain why I'm on my third pump, that said I don't think any of the pumps were actually faulty. Having removed the pump and discovered the spring lever was stuck at the top position, the only answer I can come up with is that the rod is being pushed too far up into the pump base causing the spring lever to get stuck at the top and not come back down when the rod drops back into the engine. Could this be possible? |
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OTTO 1303 Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2020 Posts: 638 Location: Louisiana
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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2023 6:26 am Post subject: Re: 1973 Super Beetle fuel pump |
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Mauro I wrote: |
When I bought the car it came without any history, not a wise move I now realise. I have uncovered many issues created by the previous owner and replaced many parts. |
MANY of us here are GUILTY !!!
Mauro I wrote: |
Could the previous owner have tampered with the gear or cam that drives the push rod? I'm struggling to find a logical reason to explain why I'm on my third pump, that said I don't think any of the pumps were actually faulty. Having removed the pump and discovered the spring lever was stuck at the top position, the only answer I can come up with is that the rod is being pushed too far up into the pump base causing the spring lever to get stuck at the top and not come back down when the rod drops back into the engine. Could this be possible? |
Anything is possible.
Remove the pump and rotate engine. The 108mm rod should protrude 12-14mm above the base gasket. Ensure rod is not sticking during movement.
A fuel pressure measurement may help diagnose the issue.
If rod movement and pressure is correct, I would suspect the pump, the pump mounting block, and/or the amount of torque applied to the pump mounting nuts.
Good Luck _________________ 74 Super Sun Bug - OTTO
74 Super - DANZIG
74 Super - HERZOG |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31396 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2023 9:23 am Post subject: Re: 1973 Super Beetle fuel pump |
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Mauro I wrote: |
I'm struggling to find a logical reason to explain why I'm on my third pump, that said I don't think any of the pumps were actually faulty. |
Does your have a fuel filter between the tank and the fuel pump? I've heard of that sometimes impeding fuel flow.
Remember: VW used just the in-tank fuel sock (which my own 1970 didn't even have, it was just 2 years old when I bought it) and the little cone-shaped filter inside some years of fuel pumps. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Mauro I Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2023 Posts: 8 Location: England
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2023 12:24 am Post subject: Re: 1973 Super Beetle fuel pump |
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Hi everyone, thanks for all your advice. When its not so cold outside I will investigate further and hopefully get this car running reliably. |
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Mauro I Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2023 Posts: 8 Location: England
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Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2024 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: 1973 Super Beetle fuel pump |
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Hi all, today has been the first decent weather day since my last post. I checked the height of the push rod, it seemed a little too long so I removed the pump and added 3 gaskets to raise it slightly. The car starts and runs so hopefully it will solve the pump issue. However, I can not find a way to raise the idle rpm. This happened before but was easily fixed by adjusting the distributor. In my previous post I explained that the mechanic that came to my roadside callout changed my distributor to a new one I had in the hope that the distributor was the cause of the that breakdown, it wasn't, as we now know it was the fuel pump. The car starts first time no problem, it runs really well until the choke is fully open then no matter what I do I cannot raise the idle speed enough to keep the car from cutting out. The fuel pressure set to 1.5 psi, I've checked the points 0.7 and rotated the distributor backwards and forwards. I've followed directions for setting up the carburettor but even with the idle speed needle almost fully out the car still cuts out unless I keep opening the throttle by hand. Is there something wrong, or just my lack of experience. |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31396 Location: Hot Arizona
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baldessariclan Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2016 Posts: 1385 Location: Wichita, KS
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Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2024 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: 1973 Super Beetle fuel pump |
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Mauro I wrote: |
The car starts first time no problem, it runs really well until the choke is fully open then no matter what I do I cannot raise the idle speed enough to keep the car from cutting out. The fuel pressure set to 1.5 psi, I've checked the points 0.7 and rotated the distributor backwards and forwards. I've followed directions for setting up the carburettor but even with the idle speed needle almost fully out the car still cuts out unless I keep opening the throttle by hand. Is there something wrong, or just my lack of experience. |
Suspect it may be at least partially due to a lack of experience, as you noted — are you familiar with the tune-up procedure for these cars? If not, recommend doing some homework on that. It’s not hard to learn, and your car will run so much better once you know how!
There’s also the possibility that some of the replacement parts in your car may have quality issues — unfortunately a lot of the currently available aftermarket parts for these cars suffer from that nowadays. E.g., if you’ve got an “EMPI” or “no-name” carburetor and/or distributor, there’s a significant chance you won’t be able to tune them to run satisfactorily, no matter how hard you try…
Anyway, first order of business is to learn and perform a proper tune-up procedure, and then report your results from that. Let us know if you need any help, and good luck! _________________ 1971 Standard Beetle — fairly stock / driver
baldessariclan -- often in error, never in doubt... |
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OTTO 1303 Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2020 Posts: 638 Location: Louisiana
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Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2024 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: 1973 Super Beetle fuel pump |
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When adjustments are made to the carb and no change occurs, or the engine doesn’t run when adjustments are properly made, a few things could be occurring:
Carburetor passages and/or jets are clogged or dirty
Vacuum leaks
Timing
Inadequate fuel supply
Dead cylinders
Which carb?
Which distributor?
More info will help
If I had similar issues, the carb would get a thorough cleaning
Good Luck _________________ 74 Super Sun Bug - OTTO
74 Super - DANZIG
74 Super - HERZOG |
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kreemoweet Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008 Posts: 3900 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 4:17 pm Post subject: Re: 1973 Super Beetle fuel pump |
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There's really no other explanation for a fuel pump lever being jammed up inside the pump than shoddy aftermarket construction.
The pump lever should have a return spring on top pushing it back down to follow the rod as it drops back down into the flange, and
it's a fairly stiff spring too. And of course the diaphragm spring acting on the other end of the lever is additional force pushing the lever and rod down.
What carb are you working with? A '73 SB came with the 34 PICT-3, and specs for the fuel pump with that carb state 3-5 psi, so your
1.5 psi is definitely a problem and I would expect chronic fuel starvation with such a low pressure.
Frankly, I can't imagine how any fuel pump usable on a '73 could output that low of a pressure, stock or
aftermarket.
What "directions" are you following to set up the carb? The 34 PICT-3 has NO "idle speed needle". _________________ '67 bug: seized by the authorities
'68 bug: seized by the authorities
'71 kombi: not yet seized by the authorities
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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Mauro I Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2023 Posts: 8 Location: England
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Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 5:37 am Post subject: Re: unadjustable idle speed. |
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Hi, continuing on with the same issue, that being once the engine has warmed up and the choke is fully opened, the engine will slowly stall. The timing is set to approx. 7/8 degrees. The fuel pressure is 3psi. The tune-up procedure I followed is, warm up the engine then switch it off. Close both the bypass and volume screws. Turn them both out 2.5 turns then start the engine. Turn out the bypass screw until you reach 850/900 rpm. This is where the problem begins, unless I keep pulsing the throttle with my hand the engine will stall. I can hear the difference in air intake as I turn out the bypass screw from 2.5 turns out to almost flush with the body, so I would have said there's no air leak with the bypass screw. Turning the distributor anti clockwise does raise the idle speed slightly but not enough to stop the engine stalling plus is that the right thing to do because then its no longer timed at 7 or 8 degrees. I've attached photos of both the carb and distributor that came with the car. All advice appreciated.
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Mauro I Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2023 Posts: 8 Location: England
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Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 5:55 am Post subject: Re: 1973 Super Beetle fuel pump |
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Sorry I forgot to mention, I have recently taken off the carb and cleaned it out although I could see it was clean and clear of debris anyway. I should also point out that this stalling issue existed before I removed the carb to clean it. I replaced the gasket on the head of the carb and at the bottom where it attaches to the manifold. |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31396 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 9:02 am Post subject: Re: 1973 Super Beetle fuel pump |
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Mauro I - wouldn't hurt to put a hose clamp on the front (hidden) side of the steel guide tube for the accelerator cable. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Dusty1 Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004 Posts: 1435
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Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 9:18 am Post subject: Re: 1973 Super Beetle fuel pump |
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Going back to the 1980s, there was The Urban Legend of the Sushi Worm. As the story goes our poor yuppie protagonist (agonist?) our poor yuppie protagonist complained of agonizing abdominal pain. The wheeled him from the ED to an operating room and they opened him up. The surgeons spent the next half hour chasing a large and very energetic parasite around his insides.
The Legendary Sushi Worm.
Tellin' you that to tell you this:
Years ago my '69 just would not run right. I swapped fuel pumps. I swapped carburetors. I fiddled with the ignition. I threw several tune- ups worth of nice Bosch ignition parts at it.
Numerous fuel pump swaps later I had an epiphany. Pull the stupid gas tank and clean the little screen found under there.
I went one step further. I had an air chuck right there so I stuck it on the gas tank end of the fuel line. My '69 spit out the automotive version of
The Legendary Sushi Worm.
Found it stuck to the garage door behind the car.
And they all lived happily ever after.
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