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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12753 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2024 3:12 pm Post subject: More Fuchs questions |
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I asked these questions in another area but maybe there is no traffic there anymore so I will try again here.
Back ground is I have a glass Manx copy street Buggy that I am converting to disc brakes and genuine Fuchs 5 spoke wheels. The rears are 15" x 8" and I am happy with that but the fronts are 15" x 7" and with appropriately narrow tires for the weight of the front end (165 15) and in the interest of steering effort the wheels are really too wide. I would much prefer 5.5" width.
I also have a 944 with Fuchs on it. The car came to me with two 15" x 7" and two 16" x 7" wheels. Ideally I would like to have 15" x 7" all the way around on it.
So what are the relative values between used (as they are now out of production) 15" x 5.5" wheels and 16" x 7" wheels? Also rarity, as in what is the chances of finding the 5.5" width and how desirable is the 16" wheels to others?
Thanks in advance! _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Bruce Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003 Posts: 17294 Location: Left coast, Canada
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Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2024 12:31 am Post subject: Re: More Fuchs questions |
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My late Beetle is significantly heavier than any glass buggy. I have 7 & 8 x 15" Fuchs on it. The front tires are 205/55/15. Steering effort is minimal. In the past 30 years I've had these wheels on the car, I've never thought the steering was too stiff.
7x15" Fuchs are worth a lot more than 8x15s. That's because guys with early narrow bodied 911s can use them with a 205/60 tire. They can't use the 8s.
Same goes for the 914 guys. They will fit 7x15s with a narrow tire.
IMO, both are pointless since a 205/60 fits a 6" wheel just fine.
The 7x16s are not worth as much as 6s, or 8s. There were tons of 911s shipped with 6 & 7 x 16s. Whenever they want to upgrade to wider wheels, they buy a pair of 8 x 16s (or 9s!). Then they remove their 6s and put their original 7" rears up front with the new 8s on the back.
You might then wonder why a 6x16 is worth lots. There are several companies making 3 piece wheels in sizes and diameters that Porsche never offered. For those 3 piece wheels, they cut out the centers of a 6 x 16.
Original 5½ x 15s are "earlies" to the VW world. They have the perfect offset for the front of a Beetle. Sure, lots of guys will want original 4½s on the front, but their rarity limits who can do it.
I've seen ads asking $800-1000 for 5½s each. Similar to what a deep 6 will bring. The 5½s' values are driven by the VW world (as is the 4½). The only P guys who want a 5½ is someone with a 68 911S since it is a one year only wheel. Any other year, they want other sizes. If they don't care about originality, they'll go with a deep 6 every time.
Some VW guys might want 7x16s for their rear, but mostly it's the P guys who will buy them.
When it comes to wheels, the Porsche guys are frugal. They aren't willing to spend the money that VW guys will.
The holy grail of Fuchs is the 911R wheel. It is an early "deep" 7x15, with a special offset of 49mm. (Late 7s have an ET of 23mm) It means you can fit a decently wide tire under the narrow rear fenders of an early 911. I've seen these wheels sell for $5k/pair.... to the VW world!
Join the Porsche Wheel Trader group on FB. _________________
overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12753 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2024 7:54 am Post subject: Re: More Fuchs questions |
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Thanks for the comprehensive reply!
I had 205 55 14s on the front, changed to 165 75 15s and the difference in steering effort, ride quality, reduced bump steer and wander on the highway was well worth the change. Some of it was due to eliminating the wheel adaptors (offset) and some because of the increase in diameter. This car likely is only carrying 300 to 350 pounds on the front axle so wide fronts only serve to increase the understeer.
I could buy 15 x 5.5 reproduction Fuchs at a fairly reasonable cost but I don't know how close they look to the real thing. I would rather stay with the 7" ones than have a mismatched looking car. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Puppy67 Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2022 Posts: 221 Location: Bristol, UK
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Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2024 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: More Fuchs questions |
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The Flat4 and Maxilite wheels are reasonably close (apart from being polished instead of anodised). You may be able to get them anodised, otherwise a satin clearcoat can give a close approximation. |
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Bruce Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003 Posts: 17294 Location: Left coast, Canada
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Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2024 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: More Fuchs questions |
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oprn wrote: |
I had 205 55 14s on the front, changed to 165 75 15s and the difference in steering effort, ride quality... well worth the change. |
For a while, I used to switch to 155/80/15s on original 4½s for the winter and I also noticed a huge improvement in ride quality. This is due to the weight of the wheel and tire, and the slightly taller more flexible sidewall of the 155/80 vs the 205/55.
In your case, a big factor was the elimination of the adaptors.
If you go with either of those aftermarket 5½" repros, beware, they weigh more than your existing 7x15 real Fuchs. If you put your existing 165/75s on a repro 5½, the ride will be worse!
When I previously posted, I was thinking from the perspective of my car and the restriction caused by the fenders. But you don't have that. What you should do is forget the fake 5½s and find a pair of common late flat 6x15 Fuchs. From mid 71 to about 77, most 911s came with this wheel, making it the most common size. It will be around 1 lb lighter than your existing 7s.
The wandering on the highway is called "tramming". Caused by having a narrow track with very wide tires. I'm sure you've noticed that your front wheels don't line up with the ruts in the road caused by the overloaded transports. You can never get both wheels at the bottom of the ruts, so it is constantly fighting to try to center to the ruts.
A wider tire gives more grip, regardless of the weight, so they can't cause more understeer. _________________
overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12753 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2024 7:07 am Post subject: Re: More Fuchs questions |
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Thanks for the heads up on weights. Good stuff! I wasn't sure that a 1" change in rim width would be worth doing but perhaps it would be. My biggest concern about these rims is they are very subject to curb and rock damage with a tire that narrow on them.
You are correct about the VW track width being too narrow for the ruts in the road. That has been a problem I have been battling right from the my first VW back in the late '60's. Adding castor made a big difference too as well as getting rid of offset of the spacers.
As for wider tires having more traction that is partially true up to a point. There is an ideal foot print area vs rubber compound vs weight. One side or the other of that ideal means less traction. Back in the early '70's my buddies and I discovered this with the front heavy, light rear end cars of the day. We like many that age were into smoke shows but didn't have the budget for big power. With the lack of power there was two ways to get the tires to brake free better, you either went super wide or really skinny. Properly sized tires had too much traction.
Having said that I did notice that in a hard corner my 205s on the front would start to slip before the rears so I feel that for the light weight of the glass Buggy they were marginally too wide. Adding an anti roll bar to the rear could have changed all that though. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Bruce Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003 Posts: 17294 Location: Left coast, Canada
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Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2024 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: More Fuchs questions |
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oprn wrote: |
Thanks for the heads up on weights. Good stuff! I wasn't sure that a 1" change in rim width would be worth doing but perhaps it would be. My biggest concern about these rims is they are very subject to curb and rock damage with a tire that narrow on them. |
The late 6" Fuchs should be fairly easy to get at a good price. IMO, your existing 7s are worth more. If you get some late 6s, you can get them chopped down to 5", so it is a better fit to your existing tire. Chopping them will also lighten them for a better ride.
Here's a late 6 that was chopped down to 4½":
_________________
overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12753 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2024 11:33 pm Post subject: Re: More Fuchs questions |
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That is pretty cool! I expect there are not many machine shops here that would be willing to tackle that job! _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Bruce Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003 Posts: 17294 Location: Left coast, Canada
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Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2024 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: More Fuchs questions |
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oprn wrote: |
That is pretty cool! I expect there are not many machine shops here that would be willing to tackle that job! |
A machine shop could do the job, but they'd charge a fortune. The chopping job above was done at our local wheel shop. They have the large lathes set-up to cut wheels, and they have the welders, so it's all done in-house for not a lot of $. _________________
overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12753 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2024 9:08 pm Post subject: Re: More Fuchs questions |
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Ok thanks! I will see if I can find some 6” wheels. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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ALB Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2008 Posts: 3483 Location: beautiful suburban Wet Coast of Canada
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Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2024 7:56 am Post subject: Re: More Fuchs questions |
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oprn wrote: |
Thanks for the comprehensive reply!
...I could buy 15 x 5.5 reproduction Fuchs at a fairly reasonable cost but I don't know how close they look to the real thing. I would rather stay with the 7" ones than have a mismatched looking car. |
Properly finished, the repros look surprisingly good. A guy on SpeedsterOwners.com has cast 5.5" Fuchs copies that he had re-done (sides as well as the tops of the petals polished and then painted like originals) on his Speedster and they look great. I'm sure if you put it beside an original someone knowledgeable would be able to tell which was the imposter, and whether you'd see the difference with originals on the back I don't know, but on his car they do look very good. Bruce is right, though, they are a wee bit heavier. Have you pulled leaves out of the front torsion bundles? What's on your buggy for front shocks?
PS- I have a pair of oriiginal 6" Fuchs that the wheel shop local to us (Bruce and I live in the same area) has widened to 7" on the inside (like the early 7" 911R wheels) for my Speedster. They look just like the 6's from the outside, but fit under the rear fenders... _________________ On a lifelong mission to prove (much to my wife's dismay) that Immaturity is Forever!! |
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ALB Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2008 Posts: 3483 Location: beautiful suburban Wet Coast of Canada
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Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2024 10:50 pm Post subject: Re: More Fuchs questions |
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My friend Jim's Speedster with cast Fuchs. I believe the wheels are 4 1/2's-
_________________ On a lifelong mission to prove (much to my wife's dismay) that Immaturity is Forever!! |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12753 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2024 4:36 am Post subject: Re: More Fuchs questions |
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Yes I am considering removing a few leaves in the front beam. I made the mistake of installing a lowered beam. I should have gone for dropped spindles instead. That would not have limited travel like a lowered beam does. The shocks are just cheap stock Beetle units. _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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