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MTT3107 Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2021 Posts: 265 Location: KY
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 4:00 pm Post subject: Break-in after replacing cylinders/pistons. |
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So, I checked the compression on my engine, turns out it was pretty low, 90-100 psi, with on cylinder showing only 50.
These piston and cylinders came with the engine which was in the beetle when I bought it.
I knew compression would not be great, but was surprised as to how low it was.
Engine is a stock 1600 DP with
dual EMPI ECT 34's and Pertronix SVDA distribuitor.
So I got myself a set of new cylinders and pistons.
Did the ring gapping and clocking and installed them.
Do I need to follow some kind of break-in procedure ?
I plan on starting up the engine out of the car. |
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Brian_e Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009 Posts: 3296 Location: Rapid City, SD
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Break-in after replacing cylinders/pistons. |
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Did you do any prep work or cleaning before assembling?
I would put it in the car, and go seat the rings hard and quick up an d down the nearest hill.
Brian _________________ www.type-emotorsports.com |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51177 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Break-in after replacing cylinders/pistons. |
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Don't run it too long out of the car, as Brian says go find a hill and pull hard up to the top and then let off the gas and coast down the other side (in gear), repeat 10+ times. If you don't have a hill accelerate hard on a long flat deserted road up to 40 or 50 and then let off back down to 10-20, repeat.... (don't break any lws of course ).
Drive home and change oil while it's still hot and the sparkles are still in suspension, then drive normally from there on (although the odd pull followed by a decel wouldn't hurt). _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26796 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 5:39 pm Post subject: Re: Break-in after replacing cylinders/pistons. |
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MTT3107 wrote: |
I plan on starting up the engine out of the car. |
WHAT?
WHY?
I think you have read the instructions and your just trying to piss us off by doing the opposite.
I respect your contrary attitude
But, dude, you want it to work or not?
Follow the instructions.
Low detergent oil
Load the engine
Avoid extreme temperatures for the first X miles/hours |
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MuzzcoVW Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018 Posts: 1477 Location: Westfield, MA.
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 3:25 am Post subject: Re: Break-in after replacing cylinders/pistons. |
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MTT3107 wrote: |
So, I checked the compression on my engine, turns out it was pretty low, 90-100 psi, with on cylinder showing only 50.
These piston and cylinders came with the engine which was in the beetle when I bought it.
I knew compression would not be great, but was surprised as to how low it was.
Engine is a stock 1600 DP with
dual EMPI ECT 34's and Pertronix SVDA distribuitor.
So I got myself a set of new cylinders and pistons.
Did the ring gapping and clocking and installed them.
Do I need to follow some kind of break-in procedure ?
I plan on starting up the engine out of the car. |
No need, you're not doing a cam break in so there's absolutely no reason. Also you "can't" just take compression readings on brand new fresh rings, of course the compression could be low! And X2 what Brian said, did you clean everything? Especially the liners, lately they seem dirtier than ever when doing a build! If you didn't that factory honing grit will wipe out your rings. EDIT : What about valve adjustment/condition of heads? You did re adjust valves and check the heads, correct? |
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MTT3107 Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2021 Posts: 265 Location: KY
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 5:51 am Post subject: Re: Break-in after replacing cylinders/pistons. |
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OK.....
@MuzzcoVW :
Like I said, this was the engine that came with the beetle at the time.
I had the heads reworked ( new guides, valve job) at the time.
And i did check/adjust valve lash.
When I checked the compression, yes, the engine was cold, and I know that a cold engine will tend to have lower numbers, but 50 psi ??
@modok :
I intended to run the engine on the stand, because that makes it way easier to check for leaks, and tune it.
If it is really such a bad idea, I won't do it.
No need to throw a hissy fit. |
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Brian_e Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009 Posts: 3296 Location: Rapid City, SD
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 6:54 am Post subject: Re: Break-in after replacing cylinders/pistons. |
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Extended idle, and no load running will just glaze up the cylinders and make it harder to seat the rings correctly.
Just put it in the car and get some load on it asap.
After some good hard runs, then bring it back home and work on tuning it perfectly.
Brian _________________ www.type-emotorsports.com |
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MuzzcoVW Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018 Posts: 1477 Location: Westfield, MA.
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Break-in after replacing cylinders/pistons. |
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See post above, It's what I'd say as well. Good long hard break in with hills, accell... decell again and again will make quick work of breaking them in if they aren't glazed. And well... hissy fit That's nothing. I've seen far more in these woods! Think of it as extra punctuation to get a point across. |
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94touring Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2020 Posts: 313 Location: Oklahoma - OK
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:52 am Post subject: Re: Break-in after replacing cylinders/pistons. |
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I do the same as above. Drive hard up a hill and engine brake down the hill, repeatedly. |
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Don Jones Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2020 Posts: 200 Location: Makaha, Hawaii
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: Break-in after replacing cylinders/pistons. |
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MTT3107 wrote: |
I intended to run the engine on the stand, because that makes it way easier to check for leaks, and tune it.
If it is really such a bad idea, I won't do it. |
My opinion is run it on the stand and check for any oil / vacuum leaks / tune before putting the engine to the road, you and the engine will be alot happier. It's not going to glaze the cylinders. You're only going to run it for a few minutes, just like warming up the engine when it's in the car. That's what i did with no problems whatsoever.
Finding out you have a oil leak after reinstalling the engine is sickning to say the least. Are the people telling you to reinstall the engine and go running up hills to breaking in the rings going to help you pull the engine out when you find a oil leak or something else that could easily be fixed with the engine out of the car? Probably not! |
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Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5421 Location: Holland, MI
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: Break-in after replacing cylinders/pistons. |
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Shouldn’t leak oil with fresh sealant on the barrels if the cylinders are the same length, deck is flat, and cylinder head registers are on the same level.
Install it in the vehicle and send it. Fire it up and give her the beans. Don’t baby it. _________________ 1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26796 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: Break-in after replacing cylinders/pistons. |
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I suppose I should not be too critical, it's not a big deal...just one DETAIL.
Best thing to say is.......... you don't don't have to do everything right to make it work, you just have to do enough right.
You do everything wrong then of course it won't work, but there is a lot of factors.
Lemme try to lay out how you can totally fail
Fuel wash it with a bad carburetor with the needle stuck open, in the winter, with 20-50 synthetic oil in the sump and stale gas in the tank, and also do not hone nor clean the cylinders, just leave the dirt and rust protective film in place on the cylinders, but do apply wheel bearing grease to the chinese rings and install into cylinders without checking the gaps, with the top ring is too tight and the second ring upside down and the oil ring expander overlapped, then crank it over for a half our because your distributor doesn't work, then start it up with no load and and then mess with it for half an hour trying to get a smooth idle, then let it sit for half a year in the barn so the cylinders are nice and rusty and dusty, then install it into the vehicle and feed the engine bonami to try to seat the rings.
Let me know how it works out |
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Don Jones Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2020 Posts: 200 Location: Makaha, Hawaii
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2024 11:18 pm Post subject: Re: Break-in after replacing cylinders/pistons. |
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MTT3107 wrote: |
So I got myself a set of new cylinders and pistons.
Did the ring gapping and clocking and installed them. |
I would also suggest running Break-In Oil while rings are setting in. I always use Lucas 30w break-in oil to break-in my rings, cam / lifters, etc. Cheaper than valvoline vr-1 oil on Amazon.
Do a seach: "What is brake-in oil use for" |
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MuzzcoVW Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018 Posts: 1477 Location: Westfield, MA.
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 3:34 am Post subject: Re: Break-in after replacing cylinders/pistons. |
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modok wrote: |
I suppose I should not be too critical, it's not a big deal...just one DETAIL.
Best thing to say is.......... you don't don't have to do everything right to make it work, you just have to do enough right.
You do everything wrong then of course it won't work, but there is a lot of factors.
Lemme try to lay out how you can totally fail
Fuel wash it with a bad carburetor with the needle stuck open, in the winter, with 20-50 synthetic oil in the sump and stale gas in the tank, and also do not hone nor clean the cylinders, just leave the dirt and rust protective film in place on the cylinders, but do apply wheel bearing grease to the chinese rings and install into cylinders without checking the gaps, with the top ring is too tight and the second ring upside down and the oil ring expander overlapped, then crank it over for a half our because your distributor doesn't work, then start it up with no load and and then mess with it for half an hour trying to get a smooth idle, then let it sit for half a year in the barn so the cylinders are nice and rusty and dusty, then install it into the vehicle and feed the engine bonami to try to seat the rings.
Let me know how it works out |
SO.. you've seen a couple engines I've helped re-rebuild... |
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Dan_Lockwood Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2023 Posts: 189 Location: Clare MI
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:35 am Post subject: Re: Break-in after replacing cylinders/pistons. |
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I really don't want to hijack this thread... BUT, all good for a top end with P/C's etc, but I've looked for break in of a FULL build and have not found anything that really nails it.
So, when I get my 2276 built, Engle lifters, SCAT C35 cam, 1.25:1 SCAT solid rockers (that measure more around 1.35:1), AA Hypereutectic 94mm jugs/pistons, dual 44IDF's, 1-5/8" headers and Tims' Stage 2 heads, what would be a good break in process???
I do NOT have an engine stand to pre-run the motor, but it is a sand rail, so it's all exposed for easy access.
Thoughts?
Thanks in advance and sorry MTT3107 for stealing your thread...
Dan |
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Zed999 Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2018 Posts: 1250 Location: UK
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Break-in after replacing cylinders/pistons. |
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Last edited by Zed999 on Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:59 am; edited 2 times in total |
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bsairhead Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008 Posts: 3592 Location: viroqua wi.
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:55 am Post subject: Re: Break-in after replacing cylinders/pistons. |
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Dan_Lockwood wrote: |
I really don't want to hijack this thread... BUT, all good for a top end with P/C's etc, but I've looked for break in of a FULL build and have not found anything that really nails it.
So, when I get my 2276 built, Engle lifters, SCAT C35 cam, 1.25:1 SCAT solid rockers (that measure more around 1.35:1), AA Hypereutectic 94mm jugs/pistons, dual 44IDF's, 1-5/8" headers and Tims' Stage 2 heads, what would be a good break in process???
I do NOT have an engine stand to pre-run the motor, but it is a sand rail, so it's all exposed for easy access.
Thoughts?
Thanks in advance and sorry MTT3107 for stealing your thread...
Dan |
New cam and lifters. Run it up to 2000rpm hold it there for 20 minutes. Oil change then beat on it. Hard pulls hard decel, try not to keep a constant rpm. |
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chrisflstf Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004 Posts: 3450 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:45 am Post subject: Re: Break-in after replacing cylinders/pistons. |
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Excessive idling, even 30 minutes after cam/lifters break in will glaze the cylinders. Then you get to hone and rering again. Alot people arent aware of easy it is to glaze cylinders |
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vamram Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2012 Posts: 7314 Location: NOVA
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:46 am Post subject: Re: Break-in after replacing cylinders/pistons. |
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I'm curious, how did the factory break-in rings on new engines going into cars during assembly? _________________ Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!
'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
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Save the Supers!! |
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Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5421 Location: Holland, MI
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2024 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: Break-in after replacing cylinders/pistons. |
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They didn’t. They ran in the engines for ten minutes at the factory, set the idle mixture and timing, and sent the car on its way.
I saw a picture of one of the rooms at the factory where they did this, but not sure I could find it back. Pretty cool.
Breaking in the rings outside of the car requires the engine be mounted onto a dyno so you can load it up. Can’t just break in rings on a test stand. _________________ 1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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