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vanis13
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010
Posts: 4635
Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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 Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2024 9:27 am Post subject: CV drive flange caps worn, raised van, axles shorter |
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friends 1985 weekender manual. Raised- rear is 18.5" center of hub to fender flare
axles are 6mm shorter than specs - these 542mm Bentley on pg 42.7 indicates 548mm (547.8mm)
What would cause this flange cap wear? On this van both sides are like this.
(I'm also curious since my 83.5 not-raised this happens on the pass side but the drivers side is fine. I haven't measured my axles - I've lived with it but would love a resolution.)
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83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10898
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2024 10:47 am Post subject: Re: CV drive flange caps worn, raised van, axles shorter |
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Are these genuine VW axles?
On another note, UN-related to the axle length....
Were the CV boots "real soft" offering no resistance to axle plunge?
I'm real curious to see the ball tracks in the CV joints too.
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'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
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crazyvwvanman
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 10489
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2024 10:50 am Post subject: Re: CV drive flange caps worn, raised van, axles shorter |
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This is just an error in the Vanagon Bentley.
The longer ones are for early transmission mounting position, like air-cooled and 82 diesels.
All watercooled Vanagons after 82 use slightly shorter axles like you found.
The Bentley doesn't show the later axle lengths.
VW moved the tranny back a little in watercooled 83 and newer.
Mark
| vanis13 wrote: |
friends 1985 weekender manual. Raised- rear is 18.5" center of hub to fender flare
axles are 6mm shorter than specs - these 542mm Bentley on pg 42.7 indicates 548mm (547.8mm)
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vanis13
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010
Posts: 4635
Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2024 10:53 am Post subject: Re: CV drive flange caps worn, raised van, axles shorter |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
This is just an error in the Vanagon Bentley.
The longer ones are for early transmission mounting position, like air-cooled and 82 diesels.
All watercooled Vanagons after 82 use slightly shorter axles like you found.
The Bentley doesn't show the later axle lengths.
VW moved the tranny back a little in watercooled 83 and newer.
Mark
| vanis13 wrote: |
friends 1985 weekender manual. Raised- rear is 18.5" center of hub to fender flare
axles are 6mm shorter than specs - these 542mm Bentley on pg 42.7 indicates 548mm (547.8mm)
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So what is the later axle length specification?
_________________
83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
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crazyvwvanman
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 10489
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2024 11:06 am Post subject: Re: CV drive flange caps worn, raised van, axles shorter |
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Later 83+ axles are about 1/4" shorter.
Mark |
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vanis13
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010
Posts: 4635
Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2024 11:08 am Post subject: Re: CV drive flange caps worn, raised van, axles shorter |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
Later 83+ axles are about 1/4" shorter.
Mark |
alright, so these are the sorter axles.....and I'm getting this cap wear.
What's the cause and solution to this cap wear?
_________________
83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10898
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2024 11:33 am Post subject: Re: CV drive flange caps worn, raised van, axles shorter |
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So you have found a van with short axles....
....that bang against the flange seal caps....
...as if they were too long....
| Sodo wrote: |
Were the CV boots "real soft" offering no resistance to axle plunge?
I'm real curious to see the ball tracks in the CV joints too. |
So is it short axles that the V-shaped CV tracks fling the axle left & right?
Possibly when paired with soft boots?
Or springy-soft boots?
Other thread: CV Clocking (if axles easily slide left-right)
Anyway, thanks for posting the observed anomaly.
Maybe we're on to something.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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vanis13
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010
Posts: 4635
Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2024 11:48 am Post subject: Re: CV drive flange caps worn, raised van, axles shorter |
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| Sodo wrote: |
So you have found a van with short axles....
....that bang against the flange seal caps....
...as if they were too long....
| Sodo wrote: |
Were the CV boots "real soft" offering no resistance to axle plunge?
I'm real curious to see the ball tracks in the CV joints too. |
So is it short axles that the V-shaped CV tracks fling the axle left & right?
Possibly when paired with soft boots?
Or springy-soft boots?
Other thread: CV Clocking (if axles easily slide left-right)
Anyway, thanks for posting the observed anomaly.
Maybe we're on to something. |
| vanis13 wrote: |
| (I'm also curious since my 83.5 not-raised this happens on the pass side but the drivers side is fine. I haven't measured my axles - I've lived with it but would love a resolution.) |
yes!...and have had ONE side (edit, pass side) on my 20+yr owned van exhibit this condition with several axle swaps - so maybe some were or weren't matched, thought the other side never had this issue
Cool clocking link
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83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make
Last edited by vanis13 on Tue Sep 10, 2024 12:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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crazyvwvanman
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Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 10489
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2024 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: CV drive flange caps worn, raised van, axles shorter |
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The crossmember where the tranny nose mount attaches has 2 sets of holes.
People sometimes use the wrong set for their tranny type.
This puts the tranny at a sideways angle, moving one cv flange closer and the other flange farther from the wheels.
Mark |
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vanis13
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010
Posts: 4635
Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2024 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: CV drive flange caps worn, raised van, axles shorter |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
The crossmember where the tranny nose mount attaches has 2 sets of holes.
People sometimes use the wrong set for their tranny type.
This puts the tranny at a sideways angle, moving one cv flange closer and the other flange farther from the wheels.
Mark |
verified THIS IS NOT THE ISSUE in these cases
1) the raised 1985 has this issue on both sides - if it was pushed to the drivers side because of Auto holes being used one side woudl be much worse than other and other (maybe) no have the issue.
2) the 1983.5 has it on the pass side - if it was in the Auto holes it would push the tranny to the pass side making the drivers side have more room and less likely to cause this.
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www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
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vanis13
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Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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4Gears4Tires
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Joined: October 08, 2018
Posts: 4421
Location: MD
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2024 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: CV drive flange caps worn, raised van, axles shorter |
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=240
Some Samba discussion on the matter. Rancho is familiar with it when I asked about it, they said to cut the ends of the half shafts down a bit and that it wasn't a big deal. Instead of doing that, I replaced my Chinese CV axles with GKN ones.
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vanis13
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Posts: 4635
Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2024 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: CV drive flange caps worn, raised van, axles shorter |
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| 4Gears4Tires wrote: |
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=240
Some Samba discussion on the matter. Rancho is familiar with it when I asked about it, they said to cut the ends of the half shafts down a bit and that it wasn't a big deal. Instead of doing that, I replaced my Chinese CV axles with GKN ones. |
Thanks for link.
It seems strange to have to cut a correct size axle....and then how to cut the groove without a lathe?
Since it seems an uncommon occurrence it's gotta be some anomaly. I don't have enough data on this double failure on the 1985.......on the 83 it seemed to occur no matter what axle went on the passenger side. I confirmed the correct mounting holes and measured transmission flange to wheel flange and they were within 1/16 of each other.
_________________
83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
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Christopher Schimke
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Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5550
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2024 5:30 am Post subject: Re: CV drive flange caps worn, raised van, axles shorter |
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Alika has posted some really good info on axles.
| ALIKA T3 wrote: |
Driveshaft, axle lengths:
251501203 548mm, 091 transmission and superceded by 251501203G 094 Syncro, 548mm as well.
251501203D, 541mm 091/1+ 094 transmissions 2WD.
251501201G Syncro 16" (28 splines anyway vs 33splines)
251501203A 531mm 090 early (aircooled) Left side
251501203E 522mm 090 Left side
251501204 579mm 090 early (aircooled) Right side
251501204B 570mm 090 Right side
So the difference the engine/transmission location caused on the axle length was 7mm on manual transmissions to 9mm on automatic transmissions. |
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4Gears4Tires
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Joined: October 08, 2018
Posts: 4421
Location: MD
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| Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2024 6:05 am Post subject: Re: CV drive flange caps worn, raised van, axles shorter |
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| vanis13 wrote: |
Thanks for link.
It seems strange to have to cut a correct size axle....and then how to cut the groove without a lathe? |
It shouldn't need that much, just taking a bit off the end. Just a sixteenth or two, but yeah. I didn't do it. I just bought new axles. 
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'85 Westy Sciuridae Domus Edition |
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vanis13
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010
Posts: 4635
Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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| Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2024 6:49 am Post subject: Re: CV drive flange caps worn, raised van, axles shorter |
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| 4Gears4Tires wrote: |
| vanis13 wrote: |
Thanks for link.
It seems strange to have to cut a correct size axle....and then how to cut the groove without a lathe? |
It shouldn't need that much, just taking a bit off the end. Just a sixteenth or two, but yeah. I didn't do it. I just bought new axles. |
IDK, cutting seems like trial/error to me and if not enough, then have to take it apart again,,,,and new axles may not resolve this situation since different axles did not solve it on the one side of the 83
It has to be something else.
_________________
83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
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DanHoug
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Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2024 7:29 am Post subject: Re: CV drive flange caps worn, raised van, axles shorter |
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take a look at the depth your cap seal is inserted vs dobryan's... yours appears to be standing too proud. newbies take note-- a ring of RTV after installation is good insurance.
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60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
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vanis13
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Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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| Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2024 7:36 am Post subject: Re: CV drive flange caps worn, raised van, axles shorter |
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it is inserted right up to the flange axle as can be seen because to the worn through hole  so can't be installed any deeper.
both have RTV though the gray and more quantity makes dobyan's easier to see.
...and without seeing dobyan's flange axle (since its not worn through), how can one know how deep his cap is
| DanHoug wrote: |
take a look at the depth your cap seal is inserted vs dobryan's... yours appears to be standing too proud. newbies take note-- a ring of RTV after installation is good insurance.
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83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
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markswagen
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Joined: January 28, 2018
Posts: 1554
Location: san diego
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| Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2024 9:04 am Post subject: Re: CV drive flange caps worn, raised van, axles shorter |
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that's not an original VW axle
how long are the splines, if the splines are way longer than they need to be, ie longer than the thickness of the center of the CV joint, that would allow the axel to potentially slide through and hit the center of the flange cup.
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hardway
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Location: Fidalgo Island
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| Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2024 9:14 am Post subject: Re: CV drive flange caps worn, raised van, axles shorter |
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I have seen this more than once. So far the common factor has been Chinese axles. What is happening is that as the axle rotates the shaft jumps back and forth. You can hear the axle striking the drive flanges while driving. With the bus on a rack you can watch the axle moving in and out when rotating the wheel.
The root cause is not the length of the axle. It is something to do with the joints that causes the plunging of the shaft. |
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