Front suspension type 1 sandrail

[KitS]

OK, some time back I took my front end apart in the effort of replacing the ball joints. good thing too, a couple of them just fell apart after removal. At the same time, I replaced one upper torsion leaf pack.

Ok, got it back together, quite a bit of effort. Now the front end is so stiff I have yet to see it rebound running over pretty big bumps out in the desert. I'm running 8 psi in my tires.

There are Can Ams out there that can blast down the trails at 50mph and they just float over the bumps. I know I'll never get that kind of articulation from my rail, but what can be done to soften it up some, without lowering it?

I have read some guys talking about installing one thru rod on the lower beam and using coilover shocks, I have these shocks already (on the vehicle). Would a thru rod in both upper and lower beams and then coilovers work any better?

What is the current thing to do here without buying some custom front beam?

TIA
KitS

[BFB]

Im going to guess you dont have true coilovers but have the chrome spring assist shocks sold by empi? Take those off
_________________
"how am i supposed to torque the rear wheel nut to 250 ft lbs??? " - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
Most experts aren't.

[KitS]

In all honesty, I don't think those shocks are doing much. I can actually see the spring bounce around when hitting bumps...never a compression.

[Crogg]

Get rid of your coil style shocks. Thats why its so stiff. Worst shock ever for a balljoint beam.

[QRP]

If they're the funky coil/shocks you can always remove the coils and run them without and see if it helps

[avwa]

"OK, some time back I took my front end apart in the effort of replacing the ball joints"
Sure you oriented them properly?

[dirtkeeper]

Sounds like maybe the shocks are suspect. In my case The new ball joints I installed were very stiff for the first 100 miles or so. And seemed to be a common observation on new ball joint installs.

[KitS]

Orientation of the ball joints was the first thing I double checked...tabs to grooves. Honestly, I don't think you could get it together if they were in wrong as the whole assembly is forced down to full extension forcing the ball joints to an edge.

Let me reiterate my observation of the springs on the shocks: I can actually see the springs bouncing around loosely when hitting bumps. Like they actually appear to be loose on their seats. Nontheless, I'll try just pulling them off the lower mount and see if the assembly can move. Perhaps the shocks are stuck in position?

I only have maybe 100 miles on these ball joints, and it is a very light weight front end, so maybe it'll just take more time to break in.

KitS

[KitS]

OK, I pulled the shocks off and lo and behold, they are stuck. The front end will now articulate a little when I jump on it. The real test will be to see how it does over the rough stuff. Suggestions for a replacement set of shocks?

KitS

[Mikedrevguy]

[KitS]

Well, assuming I am still not happy with the ride. I'm thinking (only thinking so far) of pulling the lower torsion stack out (it is original equipment, so softer), putting in a thru rod, and shocking from there. If I need more tention than that will give, I'm figuring a set of shocks with helper springs might work (cheaper than coilovers too).

Waddya think about that idea?

KitS

[KitS]

No response?

[BFB]

This place is fairly dead these days. FB put a hurtin on all the forums and now your left with most of the main guys being old coots who do it the way they do it because thats how its been done and thats the way to keep on doing it, dont like to discuss change or repeat themselves. And so the new guys that show up dont stay.
But no, that idea isnt great because youll end up spending all eternity trying to get the front end lined out to where you want it. Those helper spring types arent adjustable so your just guessing and hoping itll work to your liking and youll end up spending more money than if you bit the bullet and bought coil overs.
Originally your front end was too stiff, now is it to soft or are you just kicking ideas around for shit n grins and the enjoyment of building something?
_________________
"how am i supposed to torque the rear wheel nut to 250 ft lbs??? " - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
Most experts aren't.

[DesertSasquatchXploration]

Buy the cheapest Twin tube shocks you can find but not Monroe. Any replacement twin tubes will blow after a year if you really go out and use the rail some guys actually like them better after they blow out. Don't buy Mono tubes they are much stiffer.
Aftermarket coil over shocks on a ball joint will not make it a race front end look at the class 11 bugs the front end is super stiff they actually just bounce over the terrain its a back braking ride you don't have the travel nothings going to change that. Your looking at 30-40mph offroad on mild/medium trails and 5-10mph on rough trails. Beats the pants off jeeps they are 3mph tops mostly because they are making 600$ payments and usually drunk don't spill the beer.

[QRP]

[cbeck]

Some of us like to build other stuff also. Like rockwell axled, alcohol swilling mid mount bigblock mega trucks.

_________________
My cut in half and rebuild thread
www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647779

[Wulfthang]

I replaced the ball joints on my rail front end and put on the those springs assisted shocks too. It was so stiff I thought it was seized. I took the shocks off and it made no difference so I put them back on. It did finally loosen up and start acting like a suspension after a hundred miles or so. I kept the spring shocks on because they added an inch of ride height and I could tell no difference between them and a "good set".

[DHale_510]

Have you considered preload as well as spring rate?
Stock front spring stuff has a rate of about 75#/" and a preload to compensate for the 500# or so static weight load of a beetle. A buggy will have about 150# static weight load so it will take more than a little force to get off the stops and start spring action. You may consider that too stiff because you are not going fast enough to hit that hard. Yet. Do your own arithmetic.
You could measure your preload with a yardstick and some weight. See how many pounds it takes to move the front down an inch from rest. I bet it is so much [I guess about 300#] it never moves at the speed and roughness you are fussing about, that means no real suspension and it has little to do with spring rate at all. If you reduce the spring rate and go off road you will be hitting the upper stops and it will again feel too stiff when it is too soft.
The streeters with their lowered beams loose the preload but also loose their load capacity and they too complain about stiffness from sitting on the other end of the travel.
FV class roadracers weigh like buggies and often remove the upper spring packs with a through rod replacements but they never need off road type travel nor landing from jumps. It does get tham off the preload stops and the suspension articulates well.
Remember that shocks are not springs, they are devices to slow the travel of the springs. Gas shocks have some spring action but it is not linear and at best cannot really be counted on as a spring. lots to ponder though....
Tire pressure is also a non linear spring effect and load on the tire is a big deal. Buggies basically have no load on the front tires so all the tire load data that is set for high load safety is mostly irrelevant.
Since you said you like to overthink things.......
Dennis

[halfassleatherworks]

"FV class roadracers weigh like buggies and often remove the upper spring packs with a through rod replacements but they never need off road type travel nor landing from jumps. It does get tham off the preload stops and the suspension articulates well."

This will work for Link pin front end only, not the ball joint. as I have found out and now have to fix. If you take the top spring pack out you will put the hole weight of the front end on the bottom ball joints. " from slalombuggy I never though about it but on a ball joint front end you are right, all the weight would be borne by the lowers which are in tension. Mine have all been link pin."

[Dan_Lockwood]