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BoneStorm-zZ
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2024
Posts: 29
Location: Los Angeles
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 Posted: Tue May 06, 2025 9:26 pm Post subject: 2085cc Bug Cruiser Engine |
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Hello, Samba! I'd like some opinions on a future build of mine. Please tell me what you think. Few things first:
-Bug type 1, Feb '71
-street engine
-max ~5500RPM
-stock AH Trans
-stock tires
-91 premium fuel
-78.4/.8 Crank
-92mm TW P/C
-044 panchito 40×35 heads
-5.4/5.5 Unitech Rods
-Web 163 Cam
-1.25 rockers w/ Solid Shaft
-Dual 40 IDF Webers
-CB offset match ported manifolds
-1.5" merged header exhaust/ no heat
-9.5:1 CR
- ~.045 DH
For a whopping 2085cc stroker.
These are the bones of the build.
My biggest concerns are whether the 40IDFs can hold up and if the exhaust is too small.
Few more things -
I say 78.4/.8 crank and 5.4/.5 rods because I'm still calculating my deck height in relation to the cylinder deck. Still working on it!
All the long block goodies - ignition, dizzy, alternator, tins - cooling or stock, shroud, clutch/pressure plate, thermostat (yes or no), pierburg pump, full flow system, 1.5 qt sump, 26mm oil pump, gauges (tach, oil temp), jetting, vent size, are still being researched.
I would very much appreciate advice on which would be useful for my application. Thanks a whole bunch.
And for those curious, Aluminum case, opened to 90.5/92 (96mm)
-Nate |
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Brian_e 
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 4279
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2025 9:52 pm Post subject: Re: 2085cc Bug Cruiser Engine |
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If you are getting a new clearanced aluminum case, just get an 82mm crank, and build a 2180cc. The last 3-4 I have done only needed a .030” shim to have a perfect .040” deck height. I theory, the 78mm might not need any spacers, but then you might need to get cylinders machined to get it down to .040.
The extra CC will only help, but step up to 44’s. The Amazon chIDF’s have been working good. Same price, just like the bigger crank.
The web 163 will work really good with your upper limit in the 2180cc, but the panchitos will be really close to maxed out.
Brian
_________________
So more or less the lazier and stupider you want to be, the nicer quality parts you need to buy.
-Modok
Narrowed beams, Drop adjustable spring plates, Bus disk brake and IRS kits.
www.type-emotorsports.com
Type E Engine Parts and Supplies
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/engine-parts |
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BoneStorm-zZ
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2024
Posts: 29
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2025 11:04 pm Post subject: Re: 2085cc Bug Cruiser Engine |
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| Brian_e wrote: |
If you are getting a new clearanced aluminum case, just get an 82mm crank, and build a 2180cc. The last 3-4 I have done only needed a .030” shim to have a perfect .040” deck height. I theory, the 78mm might not need any spacers, but then you might need to get cylinders machined to get it down to .040.
The extra CC will only help, but step up to 44’s. The Amazon chIDF’s have been working good. Same price, just like the bigger crank.
The web 163 will work really good with your upper limit in the 2180cc, but the panchitos will be really close to maxed out.
Brian |
I have the case and I have the 40's. Admittedly, this is more of a "what can I do with these" type situation.
I appreciate the advice, Brian. Do you think my combo would work? |
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BoneStorm-zZ
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2024
Posts: 29
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2025 1:53 am Post subject: Re: 2085cc Bug Cruiser Engine |
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| Brian_e wrote: |
If you are getting a new clearanced aluminum case, just get an 82mm crank, and build a 2180cc. The last 3-4 I have done only needed a .030” shim to have a perfect .040” deck height. I theory, the 78mm might not need any spacers, but then you might need to get cylinders machined to get it down to .040.
The extra CC will only help, but step up to 44’s. The Amazon chIDF’s have been working good. Same price, just like the bigger crank.
The web 163 will work really good with your upper limit in the 2180cc, but the panchitos will be really close to maxed out.
Brian |
I dont completely understand.
I don't want to embarrass my self *too much* on my own thread, did you mean that as it stands, I'm on the max with the panchitos? Because that was on purpose. Wouldn't a builder want to utilize the potential of the head to its fullest?
Web 163 with 1.25s for .478 lift. Am I risking binding in the springs? Panchitos have a flow limit of about ~.520 IIRC.
If I did go larger on the stroke, I'd need 57cc chambers for a .042 DH.
Can I just...dremel 3cc out of the chamber? I would have my CC measuring kit to check.
The carbs I already have can be rebuilt and sold for a pair of 44s. I don't mind doing that. That's okay.
And Brian, I will be porting the intake/exhaust ports as you've highlighted before on The Samba. I saw your YouTube video. Good stuff.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=797108 |
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Brian_e
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 4279
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2025 7:28 am Post subject: Re: 2085cc Bug Cruiser Engine |
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Is your aluminum case already machined for stroker clearance?
Yes, the panchitos will be maxed on a 5500rpm 2180, not because of lift, but because of port volume. I know they will do it, but they will be slowing down at 5500.
You are going to need dual springs with a 163 and 1.25’s. I would also get the CNC chambers. The non-CNC will need quite a bit of work to un-shroud them for the 92mm bore. Chamber work sucks, and it takes forever to gain 1-2cc. It’s also a really good way to screw up good heads.
If you are wanting a more ready to run set, for what you are building, Tims S1 40x35 will be just about perfect, and they will be about the same cost, but ready to rip out of the box.
Brian
_________________
So more or less the lazier and stupider you want to be, the nicer quality parts you need to buy.
-Modok
Narrowed beams, Drop adjustable spring plates, Bus disk brake and IRS kits.
www.type-emotorsports.com
Type E Engine Parts and Supplies
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/engine-parts |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7969
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Brian_e
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 4279
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2025 9:30 am Post subject: Re: 2085cc Bug Cruiser Engine |
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I was thinking FK8 also, and then the Tims S1 heads would REALLY shine!
But if he only want to rev to 5500, the web163 will make a pretty killer driver with the low and mid range power.
_________________
So more or less the lazier and stupider you want to be, the nicer quality parts you need to buy.
-Modok
Narrowed beams, Drop adjustable spring plates, Bus disk brake and IRS kits.
www.type-emotorsports.com
Type E Engine Parts and Supplies
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/engine-parts |
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BoneStorm-zZ
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2024
Posts: 29
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2025 10:16 am Post subject: Re: 2085cc Bug Cruiser Engine |
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| Rough Idles make me nervous. |
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txoval
Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004
Posts: 3899
Location: The Woodlands, TX
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2025 10:42 am Post subject: Re: 2085cc Bug Cruiser Engine |
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FK8 or 86b would idle smooth with dual 44’s or 45’s.
While some would say it’s a boring build, a 2180 or 2276 with an 86b, Tim’s Stage 2’s or CB Ultramags makes a fun engine in a bug.
Easy on valve train, plenty of low end torque with power over 6000rpms |
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sled
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2005
Posts: 6354
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2025 11:35 am Post subject: Re: 2085cc Bug Cruiser Engine |
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| BoneStorm-zZ wrote: |
| Rough Idles make me nervous. |
Dual IDF or DRLA makes this a non issue with the type of cams being discussed here. Assuming one can balance a pair of carbs correctly and there are no vaccum leaks that is…
_________________
drive your split. |
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escott427
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2021
Posts: 5
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2025 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: 2085cc Bug Cruiser Engine |
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| I'm building a similar setup, bought Autolinea HD case, 78mm 4340 CW crank, and Empi 5.4 Rods. Now I'm having trouble finding Cylinders/Pistons,(and a set of Std/std main bearings ,but that's another issue). I'd like to use Forged piston and the 92mm Cyl.Where did you find yours ? Looked thru all the usuals- CB, CIp1, even J-Bugs... |
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Alexander_Monday
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2007
Posts: 457
Location: Springfield Missouri
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2025 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: 2085cc Bug Cruiser Engine |
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| BoneStorm-zZ wrote: |
| Rough Idles make me nervous. |
Ditto to what the other guys said.
30 years ago or so Doug Berg recommended an FK87 for my first 2110 with dual carbs.
I said won't that idle 1500 rpm or so?
He laughed and said you're a V8 guy aren't you?
He went on to explain reversion and how having a single barrel for each cylinder would keep from diluting between cylinders like a common plenum V8 intake.
Darn thing idled at 900, which for that duration astounded me.
_________________
Danth’s or Parker’s Law:
“If you have to insist that you've won an internet argument, you've probably lost badly.”
Alexander_Monday->What were the rings gapped at?
bedlamite->Almost enough.
| andk5591 wrote: |
The original german engineers have attained sainthood and it is impossible to improve perfection.
Anything that anyone does to deviate from the original designs will be made to wrench on 20 year old Yugos with Harbor Freight tools in hell. |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7969
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2025 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: 2085cc Bug Cruiser Engine |
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| Brian_e wrote: |
You are going to need dual springs with a 163 and 1.25’s. I would also get the CNC chambers. The non-CNC will need quite a bit of work to un-shroud them for the 92mm bore. Chamber work sucks, and it takes forever to gain 1-2cc. It’s also a really good way to screw up good heads.
If you are wanting a more ready to run set, for what you are building, Tims S1 40x35 will be just about perfect, and they will be about the same cost, but ready to rip out of the box.
Brian |
Actually, A set of Oteva S90 and Ti retainers would be perfect for such an engine. Or a set of Ruddock´s Beehives.
_________________
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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BoneStorm-zZ
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2024
Posts: 29
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2025 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: 2085cc Bug Cruiser Engine |
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| escott427 wrote: |
| I'm building a similar setup, bought Autolinea HD case, 78mm 4340 CW crank, and Empi 5.4 Rods. Now I'm having trouble finding Cylinders/Pistons,(and a set of Std/std main bearings ,but that's another issue). I'd like to use Forged piston and the 92mm Cyl.Where did you find yours ? Looked thru all the usuals- CB, CIp1, even J-Bugs... |
AA has some. The classifieds here have some. |
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BoneStorm-zZ
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2024
Posts: 29
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2025 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: 2085cc Bug Cruiser Engine |
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Anyone got a 2+ liter with an Fk I can ride along with in the SoCal area?
No ass, no grass, I got you on gas. |
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BoneStorm-zZ
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2024
Posts: 29
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2025 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: 2085cc Bug Cruiser Engine |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
| Brian_e wrote: |
You are going to need dual springs with a 163 and 1.25’s. I would also get the CNC chambers. The non-CNC will need quite a bit of work to un-shroud them for the 92mm bore. Chamber work sucks, and it takes forever to gain 1-2cc. It’s also a really good way to screw up good heads.
If you are wanting a more ready to run set, for what you are building, Tims S1 40x35 will be just about perfect, and they will be about the same cost, but ready to rip out of the box.
Brian |
Actually, A set of Oteva S90 and Ti retainers would be perfect for such an engine. Or a set of Ruddock´s Beehives. |
Alstrup Fri Jan 05, 2024 6:07 pm
Berg springs?? I can only laugh. They are just overpriced Scat´s.
Beehives are a really good spring set up for milder lifts up to 0,500ish maybe a hair more. That automaticly puts a limit on where they can be used. Most cams with 1,25 rockers, ok. 1,4, forget it unless you buy into one of Ruddock lower lift. cams.
With Oteva´s "everything fits" and they are very resistant to harmonics.
The rpm capabilities or limitations are of course due to spring pressure, but also very much dependant on the valve train weight, quality/precission/design of the camshaft and even the valve train geometry. Many of the older 3 arc cams are very harsh on the valve train and requires a lot of spring pressure to handle rpm so they don´t bash the seats prematurely as Dave mentions. Take one of the newer designs, Raptor, Nowak and some of the Web grinds and the same spring will handle 300-1000 rpm more without any issues, and with better seat life.
Take for instance the Nowak 14 cam. 396 thousands lift at cam. With 1,25/1,3 rockers thats 515ish thousands at the valve, Yet it easily revs to 7 grand with a Oteva. 1018 (250 @ 1") spring. The closest popular 3 arc cam relatively comparable is likely the W120. Try reving 7 grand with 250 lbs @ 1" with even just 1,25 rockers. and 0,490" lift.
That said. in the latter case a Beehive set up would handle the suituation better because the spring will still be in its comfort zone. How much I can´t say. Havent done the comparison.
Thank you, Alstrup. |
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Dusty1
Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004
Posts: 2249
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2025 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: 2085cc Bug Cruiser Engine |
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| Brian_e wrote: |
| You are going to need dual springs with a 163 and 1.25’s. I would also get the CNC chambers. The non-CNC will need quite a bit of work to un-shroud them for the 92mm bore. Chamber work sucks, and it takes forever to gain 1-2cc. It’s also a really good way to screw up good heads. |
I've been told over and over
"No sharp edges in the combustion chambers!"
on every muscle car, motorcycle or Japanese "tuner" I've worked on. Yet it seems acceptable when there is a sharp edge all the way across the combustion chamber in VW heads where the flycut meets the as- cast chamber. Seems to me it would be a good place to find a couple CCs. Just radius that nasty sharp edge with emery cloth.
.
.
Last edited by Dusty1 on Wed May 07, 2025 2:42 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7969
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2025 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: 2085cc Bug Cruiser Engine |
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Don´t. you need the sharp edge to make the fuel shear off, in a street engine. You can smooth the exhaust side in order to reduce the risk of detonation
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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Dusty1
Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004
Posts: 2249
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2025 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: 2085cc Bug Cruiser Engine |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
| Don´t. you need the sharp edge to make the fuel shear off, in a street engine. You can smooth the exhaust side in order to reduce the risk of detonation |
O.k.. Bet I could find a couple CCs on the exhaust side.
Mowing the high spots in an as- cast chamber would be good for a little more.
.
. |
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Brian_e
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 4279
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2025 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: 2085cc Bug Cruiser Engine |
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| escott427 wrote: |
| INow I'm having trouble finding Cylinders/Pistons,(and a set of Std/std main bearings ,but that's another issue). I'd like to use Forged piston and the 92mm Cyl.Where did you find yours ? Looked thru all the usuals- CB, CIp1, even J-Bugs... |
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/engine-parts/products/icon-forged-piston-set-aircooled-vw
The 92's show out of stock, but they have shipped, and should be here maybe friday. I also have a couple kits coming with the new REV cylinders also.
And if you ask real nice, I also have some blue box Mahle std/std in my stash.
Brian
Type E
_________________
So more or less the lazier and stupider you want to be, the nicer quality parts you need to buy.
-Modok
Narrowed beams, Drop adjustable spring plates, Bus disk brake and IRS kits.
www.type-emotorsports.com
Type E Engine Parts and Supplies
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/engine-parts |
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