Red light on, 1960 beetle --SOLVED--

[panicman]

My red light has been on with no symptoms since I pulled my 36hp engine out and reinstalled the 40hp.

This is new. Electrical system was thoroughly cleaned and grounded for the addition of LED lights. Everything is working very well, but I still had the red light.

Today, I removed the screw that holds the voltage regulator cover on to just have a look at the internals, and as I removed the cover I heard shorting and smelled smoke.

I failed to disconnect the battery.

My question is how bad is this? The VR I am sure is now toast, assuming it was ok before.

But this knee slapping fun also caused the D+ coming out of the generator to burn through.

Is the generator now screwed?

Can I solder the D+ wire back together?

[zerotofifty]

That bare wire will need be replaced, It was a fat black insulated wire before it got cooked. Solder will be a not doable as the strands are highly oxidized, so solder wont stick. (plus the wire is highly oxidized at the crimp screw connector, so it will be high resistance) You will need to replace it back inside the generator. It goes to the upper brush holder, easy to replace, it has screw connectors on each end!!!
However there is or was a second wire, a thin red wire on that right side regulator terminal that has the fried black fat wire, and that thin wire goes to the windings. It has or had a painted on varnish insulation, just as the windings do. If that thin red wire is fried also (hard to see) then the repair is a bit more involved, it will have to be soldered some how, inside the generator, this will be tricky

See attached images...

This here above shows the thin red wire that goes to the winding from the right side regulator terminal

The two wires on the right side regulator terminal, the fat black one, and the thin red one

The fat black wire goes across to the upper generator brush, it has a screw on connector as seen above, goes to the same terminal as the upper brush is connected to. Never mind this red wire shown, it is NOT the thin red one that is on your right side regulator terminal. The fat black wire here is shown end-on at its terminal,




You will need to pull the generator and disassemble to get at that thin red wire to the winding. Bummer

Let us know what you find.

A generator rebuilder may be able to fix this for you if it is beyond what you want to do. That red thin wire maybe soldered, or perhaps crimped for repair.

Good luck

PS the thin red wire shown on my generator might be a thin black wire on your generator, I think I might be seeing it on yours. It might be intact, I hope so, if so then you only need to replace the thick black wire, which is the easy one.
Also give the commutator a good look over, as that short likely went also thru the brush and may have harmed the commutator. the commutator may not be harmed, it maybe oxidized a bit under the brush, or maybe worse, so give that a look, use a flashlight and turn the shaft to examine the entire commutator. Hoping it is ok.
_________________
Sorry About That Chief.

Give Peace a Chance.

Words to live by.

[panicman]

Thanks zerofifty. I'll look at all that.

But- my burned/severed wire was not insulated, it has always been just bare strands.

[panicman]

I don't see any red wire, certainly not one that emerges from the generator like in your image.

Here is what I could get, commutator and brushes top and bottom, and the burned wire that comes out of the generator.

[zerotofifty]

Oh, your generator is different than mine, I think that fat wire should have sleeving on it however. It is a bit sketchy otherwise.

The commutator looks a bit grooved and dirty

Your thin red wire might be internally connected to the brush holder rather than at the regulator as mine is. Mine is a stock generator from a 1966 Bug, second owner, 77 kmiles, likely original generator.

Good luck, keep us updated on progress please
_________________
Sorry About That Chief.

Give Peace a Chance.

Words to live by.

[panicman]

As luck would have it, I have a spare 36hp with nearly identical electrical, but much cleaner than the 40's. After a little disassembly, the 40 now has the generator and voltage regulator that had been put on the 36hp. Everything fired up and ran. But I still have that damn red light.

[zerotofifty]

The generator lamp illuminating can be caused by a high resistance electric path

This path is from the regulator (51, the fat red wire) to the headlamp switch, to the fuse block, to the key switch, ( now thin black wire) to a different point on the fuse block, then to the red lamp on the speedo.
if any of these multible connectors give a sum total of a high drop, of say at least a few volts, the red lamp will illuminate, even if the charging system is working.

the red lamp gets a positive 6 volts from the thin wire on regulator (61) , AND also positive 6 volts from that circuit path described above from regulator (51) . thus the lamp is across 51 and 61. when both 51 and 61 are positive 6 volts, there is no net voltage across the bulb. but when the generator stops putting out, the regulator terminal 61 goes to zero volts, but the battery positive 6 volts is hooked to 51, thus 51 is 6 volts is higher than 61, so 6 volts is now across the lamp and it illuminates
However, if the chargingbsysyem IS working, you have positive 6 volts on regulator 61, but if the many connections on the route of wire from regulator 51 to the lamp have say a 4 volt drop or such, the lamp will see that drop, and have 6-4= 2 volts on one side of the lamp, and the 6 volts on the otherside, for a net 4 volts across the lamp, and when that happens, the lamp will glow.

the fix is to clean all the connections on the path so there are no drops. you can test with a volt meter for drops, or get a long length of jumper wire and run it from terminal 51 on the regulator to the appropriate terminal on the lamp ( bypassing that route described through the head lamp switch, key switch, fuse block) if this jumper wire causes the lamp to turn off, then that means you have some drops in that long path which you jumpered over

Mine did this, I cleaned those connections and the lamp went out.

Some of the factory service books describe this fix and the test with the jumper wire.

good luck

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/bug_58_USA.jpg
_________________
Sorry About That Chief.

Give Peace a Chance.

Words to live by.

[panicman]

Thanks zero. I believe the 1960 is just a straight run from the VR to the speedo.

So I don't think there are that many opportunities for voltage drop. However, I do wonder if there is a short at either the VR end where the wire enters the sheath, or if there is something at the speedo causing this. I'd be surprised because I cleaned and straightened everything at the speedo for the upgrade to LEDs.

Also, the red light only started when I removed the 36hp engine I was trialing, and put the 40hp back in.

[indianpeaksjoe]

[panicman]

Ha ha- that cracked me up in a meeting!!

Out of the image frame, the O bar is actually hanging on a bracket.

I worked in commercial gyms through and after college, and was able to see how hanging the olympic bars guarantees they stay straight, so I just got in the habit when I put together my pandemic-inspired home gym.

I won't rule out incorporating the 36hp in a workout or two. The sharp edges and difficult grip makes it a unique tool for Romanian deadlifts.

[panicman]

OK, tonight I ran a long wire from the red indicator light at the speedo back to the voltage regulator, and made soild connections at both ends.

Fired the car up, and dang it, red light still on.

I even tried pulling the LED indicator bulb and replaced it with the incandscent- same result. I installed a new fan belt 'just in case'.

I am most suspicious of the voltage regulators. Both are ancient, and I am pretty sure I killed the one earlier in this thread. But, all electrical seems to be working fine.

Would the red light glow if the gen is putting out less than 6v? If so, how do I test for that?

Spoiler alert, I have a new gen and VR coming in for the eventual 36hp redux, so I will have the option of throwing in new stuff before long if these parts are toast.

But I don't think its all toast yet.

[zerotofifty]

The test you did with the jumper was not done correct. The jumper should be from terminal 51 on the regulator ( the one with the fat red wire) NOT 61 ( generator warning lamp terminal at regulator) as you have shown in the photograph of your test.

The idea is to bypass the long many contacts path of the red wire from 51, it goes thru the headlamp switch, fuse block terminal, ignition switch etc.. all the way to the red lamp All them connections are potential sources of drop in voltage, which if big enough will cause the lamp to glow
You instead by passed the wire from 61 which is a direct path to the red lamp.

So try the test again, this time from 51 see the wire diagram provided You must leave the wires normally attached to 51 attached during this test, simply add your jumper to 51.

In fact be sure you do NOT run the generator with the wires on 51 disconnected, it may harm the generator as it will go into a no load condition, i.e. over voltage, which can damage it.

Factory manual... ( B+ is terminal 51 on regulator, the diagram I provided in prior post lables it as 51, but the manual I show below calls it B+, it is the terminal with the fat red wires) LEAVE THE FAT RED WIRES ATTACHED WHEN YOU RUN THE JUMPER WIRE...

you may as the manual describes touch the jumper to the various terminals along the path but first go straight to the lamp, to the side of the lamp that does NOT have the small generator terminal 61 wire, nut rather the terminal that provides the connection to all three lamps (the black wire as shown in the diagram I provided)

Also note that the manual page is for a later Bug, so the reference to fuse 8 does not apply to a 1960 Bug that has multiple fuse blocks . see the diagram for 1960, the black wire goes to the fuse block twice in its path to the lamps ( the ganged all three lamp connection )
_________________
Sorry About That Chief.

Give Peace a Chance.

Words to live by.

[panicman]

My error! I will redo this test and report back.

[panicman]

Ok, red light bypass test 2.0.

I have attached my jumper as specified, this time sharing the terminal with the big red and black wire at B+. The other end is wired directly to the red indicator bulb at the speedo. The green wire has been disconnected at the regulator.

Prior to hooking all this up, battery is disconnected.

Once battery is reconnected, the red light is lit for obvious reasons.

Starting the car, the red light does go out! So I have some cleaning to do on that B+ circuit.

However, check out this short. The speedo lamps (all LED) are flickering as the engine runs. Wonder why this is...?
https://youtube.com/shorts/dN98vZc6ubE?si=XklvYBcyUAh_q3PQ

[zerotofifty]

TEST STILL NOT RUN CORRECT As you indicate you removed the green wire on terminal 61 at regulator and put the jumper wire on the red generator warning lamp that gets the green wire. BOTH of these actions are NOT correct for this test....

The green wire on terminal 61 on the regulator MUST be connect for this test. For this test ALL you should do is run the jumper wire from 51 terminal on the regulator (fat red wires) and run it to the ganged black wire that powers the three indication bulbs on the speedo. Remove no wires. only ADD this jumper wire, And as per the manual, it helps to turn on the loads such as headlamps.

The jumper wire goes to the black wire on the speedo that is in turn connected to all three of the bulbs, NOT to the single green wire that only goes to the base of the red generator warning lamp.
Run the engine at fast idle (you can manipulate the fast idle cam on the carb to do this, or depress the accelerator pedal a bit)

See the diagram provided previously


So try this test again please as outlined above. All wires leave attached. Turn on the headlights, and wipers (lift the arms to prevent scratching the glass (this is sort of optional but it helps locate minor issues in voltage drops more than if the headlamp's and wipers are off)).
Run the jumper from terminal 51 (fat red wire terminal) at regulator and connect the other end of jumper to the ganged black wire that powers all three of the speedo indicator lamps (NOT to the green wire that only goes to the red generator lamp)

Third time is the charm!!!!



PS.. the path you need to jumper over is as thus in the wire diagram..

From the thin black wire that is ganged to all three indicator lamps to the fuse block, then as black wire to terminal 15/54 on the key switch. then it becomes a fat red wire from terminal 30 on key switch and goes back to the fuse block ( different terminal than the first black wire mentioned) then still a fat red wire to terminal 30 on headlamp switch, then from that same terminal 30 on headlamp switch all the way back to terminal 51 on the regulator

In this path, any of the connections, the crimps on the wire, etc.. can give a volt drop and those drops can add up enough to cause the red light to turn on.

This path is when things are working right is the battery positive 6 volts, AND at the same time the little green wire from terminal 61 on regulator is also,positive 6 volts. Since these two wires are across the red light, and both are equal positive 6, the light is off. However, if either one is less than positive 6 volts, that means that red light sees a difference in voltage across it and thus lights up. this will happen if the generator fails, as terminal y1 (green wire) will be zero volts, but you will still have positive 6 volts on the red wire on terminal 51 as it is fed directly from the battery, so that means you will have 6 volts across the red light and it will illuminate.
But lets say that AT THE REGULATOR all is working, the generator is doing its thing all fine and dandy, you got positive 6 volts on BOTH terminal 61 and 51. so the red light should be off. BUT that long path from terminal 51 to that thin black wire that feeds the three light bulbs, and goes through a bunch of terminals, and crimps has a 3 volt drop because all,or some of those terminals and crimps are poor, dirty, loose, and the drop is even worse when the headlamps and wiper is on, well now that red lights sees positive 6 volts on its green wire from terminal 61 on regulator, as the generator is working fine, and there are no bad crimps or terminals in the path lof that green wire so it has no drop in voltage by the time it gets to the red light, BUT since that thin black wire at the red lights did have drops along its many terminals and crimps from where it got its voltage back at regulator terminal 51, and it only has 3 volts now at the red light do to 3 volts of drops (6 - 3 = 3) then that red light now has 3 volts across it, and it will glow, it may not be full brightness as it is only 3 volts across, but it will glow.
Now you come along with a nice fat jumper wire, and bypass all those poor voltage dropping terminals and crimps from terminal 51 on regulator to that black wire that feeds the speedo lights, and since that jumper has zero voltage drop, it will have positive 6 volts on it at the end you tough to the thin black wire at the light bulb, so then the lamp should turn off as it now has positive 6 volts on BOTH sides of the lamp, and thus the voltage across the lamp is now zero (6 - 6 = 0)

this is what you are doing in this test, jumping past all them potentially poor connections.

This test will be able to prove that the red light is on because of poor connections in that long path with many crimps and terminals, rather than the red light being on do to a bad generator.

Now to get fancy, IF you have proven the problem is voltage drops in that long path, you take the end of that jumper off the ganged warning lamps ( red light now on) you may probe the end of the jumper to the different ternimals in that long path, if the light goes out say when you probe say terminal 30 on the key switch, then you can conclude the bad terminal,or crimp is BETWEEN the point you just probed and terminal 51 on regulator, as that is the part you by passed. In practice , given the age of all the terminals, likely most of them have some drop do to dirt, corrosion, looseness. Then headlamp one is often a big drop when the headlamps are turned on, as the headlamps draw a lot of power. Now why you ask should the wipers be on, after all that long path does NOT go thru the wiper switch? well that is because the power for the wiper has to go thru the key switch too. ( wipers only work when the key is on after all so the wiper power does first go through the key switch, then thru the wiper switch!!!)

Anyway I do hope this explains it for you.
_________________
Sorry About That Chief.

Give Peace a Chance.

Words to live by.

[panicman]

Thanks zerofifty.

Looking at the diagram that I posted, it looks like I could run a jumper from B+ to the 15 terminal on the coil, and I would be accessing the same circuit as the black wires up at the speedometer.

I can certainly run a wire up there, but I'm assuming I would just plug my test wire into that terminal on the fuse block. If that is the case, clipping to coil 15 looks like it would achieve the same thing.

I can follow "Simon Says"! Just asking if this would work.

[zerotofifty]

[panicman]

Gave it a shot.

Wired my jumper to B+. Left all other wires attached as normal.

I crimped an alligator clip to my "probe end" and started the engine.

I tested at the ignition switch and the fuse block. At no time did the red light turn off or fade.

I also went back and tried checking the volts output at the generator. It's putting out only 6-ish volts. Could this be the issue?

[zerotofifty]

Rev the engine. If voltage dont go up, it is a problem
How the brushes look? The tops of brushes MUST extend past the top of their holders, if not then they is too worn. Disconnect battery when wirking on generator!!!
Is commutator dirty?
_________________
Sorry About That Chief.

Give Peace a Chance.

Words to live by.

[panicman]

Ok, no pics but the brushes still stand taller than their brackets. Commutator looks shiny.

Running the engine, I see volts at the B+ terminal at 6v to about 6.25v. Revving seems to have no big impact on voltage- it just keeps bobbling between 6-6.25.

Also checked across the battery with engine running and revs high, same result.

I do have both a new VR and a new generator. Obviously would be easiest to replace the regulator, but open to thoughts.