Starter Intermittency Woes

[space_out_today]

Ok, it's time to resume troubleshooting the following gremlin.

87 VW Vanagon GL, Wolfsburg edition, auto.

I noticed some intermittency with starting a few years ago but would always seem to get it to turn over by either running the gear select through all gears, turning the key completely back to KP0, or both.

Intermittency description: When I turn the key to 'start' position I can hear some type of quiet humming (for a lack of better words) at the starter. When I turn the key to KP2 the fuel pump engages, lights on, radio on, etc. It seems like power is being drawn from the battery because dash lights will dim ever so slightly. No general power issue to auxiliary systems it seems. Battery is fully charged, confirmed with voltage meter. Sometimes the van will start right up, and I thought I was able to corelate the issue to heat. After I would drive the van and try to start it up again after 5-10 minutes it seemed to occur more often than not. Now the condition appears to happen more frequently at any time.

What I have done thus far:
-replaced the ignition switch
-replaced the neutral safety switch bundle
-replaced the starter with Gear Reduction Starter (Automatic) from GoWesty

I figured it wouldn't be a bad idea to replace the starter anyway, but that was disappointing as I really don't like to just throw parts at a problem.

No joy. I'm a hobbyist and like to work on these types of things v. bring it to a mechanic but I'm losing hope and looking for suggestions. Started looking into reading voltages, installing a remote starting switch, confirming all grounds, things like that but took a pause.

I'm all ears if anyone has had a similar experience and corrected it.

Thanks in advance.

[Sodo]

Sorry I don't know anything about Automatics or their starter cut-out circuit.

Most Vanagons have had Zero attention to the negative (ground side) of the starter circuit. It's made up of several series connections (which are the worst kind), of dissimilar metals, outdoors, and can build resistance that doesn't show up on an ohm meter. Yet still cannot pass the 100amps current to crank the starter (fast).

This situation has created quite the market for new starter sales (the parts-cannon!) but its better of course to do the maintenance. It's not that often. Maybe every 5 or 10 years would be prudent, but not 35 years.

So I just __assume__ that the ground side current capacity of almost all Vanagons has diminished being outdoors 35 years with not even a single lookie.

Clamp a vise grip onto the starter mounting nut. Or better yet, onto the starter case.
Connect a jumper cable from the vise grip to the negative battery terminal.
Make good, clean electrical connections capable of passing 100 amps.

Try cranking, see if it behaves any different.

Then put a jumper cable from the alternator post (13mm nut) to the battery PLUS terminal.
Try that too.
Don't crank long&hard because it's going thru your skinny alternator charge cable, which cannot withstand a LONG crank.
Just crank long enough to assess whether it made a difference, like 2 or 3 seconds.

If this doesn't help, you have at least bypass-tested your two high-current paths to the starter, and can move on to other legs of your problem.

Do you have a Volt/Ohm meter and know how to use it?
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[space_out_today]

Hey thanks. I will try this.

You're spot on, aside from confirming/cleaning up ground mounting points one or two times since I have owned the van, I have not traced or assessed the negative path at all. With that said I have owned the van since 1998, and it has been outside the entire time. I do maintain it fairly well, keep it covered, etc., but it has been parked over a gravel driveway, albeit in a drier climate, for years.

I do have a multimeter and know how to use it, but in a case like this I haven't read up/don't understand what I'd be looking for, where to take measurements, etc.

Really appreciate the input.

[Sodo]

What I would do with the VOM meter is measure the voltage
between the jumper-cable clamp and the negative battery terminal
<WHILE CRANKING>.
Poke it right to the center lead battery terminal

The voltage will be zero when there is zero amperage flowing across the multiple dissimilar metals connections.
You are looking for voltage while there's 100Amps current flowing.

The jumper cable from the vise-grip to the vicinity of the battery is being used as a VOM leads 'extension' (for this test)

This is called "the voltage drop test" and is a like a super-power for the antique outdoor vehicle owner.
It's what you do to qualify your van circuit BEFORE buying a starter.
It's kind of strange that its such a secret among owners of 35yo outdoor vehicles.
Vanagons are often NOT garage queens.
The secret is fantastic for sellers of new starter motors because the NEW STARTER buyer
renews some of the connections during installation
and then it WORKS! It was THE STARTER! (its certainly possible that the starter was bad......)


============ the crux ===============

The voltage that you read while cranking will QUANTIFY the level of degradation of that high-current (negative) path.

0.25v (2%) is healthy.
2.0 volts drop (of 12v) is 16% loss and your starter will spin at least 16% slower.
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[Ahwahnee]

I would also test or have the battery tested under load.

What you described can be the effect of a weakened battery (that may still take a charge and show 12.6 VDC).

Most auto parts shops (O'Reilly's, AutoZone) will do this gratis (in situ) in hopes of selling you a battery. Alternately, Harbor Freight sells a basic load tester.

[xflyer]

If you do not have a relay at the starter solenoid, get one and install it. This solves many starting problems. I have been installing these for many decades, and not just on rear engined VWs.
https://www.busdepot.com/wr1
_________________
1989 Campmobile, 1984 7 passenger beater Vanagon
Both with cool A/C

[Gnarlodious]

A poorly grounded starter can cause all sorts of problems. One is it will find a ground through dashboard wiring and cause strange activity in the instrument cluster and possibly smoking. Another hazard is it will ground itself through the CV joint balls and burn the contact points and possibly burn or pit them, causing premature wear. So it's worthwhile to refresh your grounding strap at least every other year.
_________________
Vanagon ’83 diesel AAZ w/Giles injection, 5spd 4.57R&P+TBD and a '78 diesel Rabbit

[space_out_today]

Hey there.

Well, I wasn't expecting this type of delay on my testing but I've put a few things behind me and am now freed up to focus on the van.

I began by unplugging the two wire connector on the front of the engine relay box to disable spark/FI.

I attached vise grip pliers (very clean jaws and handle) first to the mounting bolt on starter for a test, and then to the starter body itself. I attached a jumper to that, then to the red lead on my multimeter. Attached the black lead of the MM to the negative terminal on the battery securely. Both vice grip positions returned .77 - .81 volts while the engine was cranking.

I then performed a similar test on the positive terminal. .8-.9 volts when jumping to the positive terminal on the battery.

I will say that not once did the intermittency occur. Of note I replaced the battery. As I was getting ready to start testing I removed the existing battery and put it on the battery tender and could not get the voltage up past 11.8v.

I have had this probably before when the battery was known good. It ~seemed to happen when the engine was hot, after a drive and trying to restart it shortly thereafter BUT that was not 100% repeatable, and I have had this happen after sitting long enough but I still wonder about the heat. I haven't taken a voltage reading of the battery immediately after that happens though.

I noticed that some of the ground straps, especially the one on the engine bay and the one attached to the transmission, or pretty corroded. I plan to replace those.

I'm in the process of replacing the water pump so further voltage testing while running is paused until next weekend. I'd like to test the alternator voltage.

One note on the alternator: There is a insulative pushing on the positive post that disintegrated when I removed it to reterminate wiring. I added some plastic spacers that I had to keep the connector away from the housing, but have been curious if there could be any risk with that.

I was hoping to see a big red flag with the voltage drop test . Any suggestions on next steps? I have to get this resolved.

Thank you!!

[1988M5]

"I was hoping to see a big red flag with the voltage drop test Smile . Any suggestions on next steps? I have to get this resolved."

You have a decent red flag already; combined losses are nearly 2 volts. Add a ground strap to fix the negative side (test to confirm after installation), then do more volt drop tests on the positive side to find the bad connection.

BK

PS always put your meter leads on the lead battery terminal itself, not on the clamp because that can be the problem.
_________________
1991 tin top GL
2002 Winnebago Vista. VW VR6 24V Eurovan front clip powered class C 21' RV.
Some BMWs.

[Crooked Designer]

This is so timely. Friday was running errands in the van. Started, drove to UPS, parked, started, drove to hardware store, parked, started, drove to beer store parked, no start.

Well, half a turn over (if that) on the first try and then nothing on subsequent tries. Waited 10 minutes, still no start. All electrical appears to be functioning (lights on dash) Never had this happen before. Had it towed to my mechanic. Rolled it off the flatbed and pushed it into the lot. He gets my keys and gets in to check to see if it's a battery issue and it starts right up. Pretty embarrassing, but beyond that couldn't repeat the issue, so fixing it is going to be challenging.

Some things to note. Just drove a 1,200 mile trip from Chicago to upper Minnesota and back 2 weeks before this event with no starting issues. On that trip, a clamp came loose on a fuel line and dumped gas all over the starter. Retightened the offending clamp and was all good. No starting issues at all.

Before that trip, redid all of the grounds behind the dash (fixed a host of minor electrical issues like seatbelt warning light / buzzer, dimming of cluster lights, function of clock, etc..) also sanded to bare metal and dielectric greased the grounds in the engine bay along the drivers side wall.

On my list is a direct large ground strap from starter to body, but haven't put that in yet. Seems like this is the van's way of making me move that up on the list.

I have a very different setup with an '85 with an EJ25 and Subaru 5 speed, but the problem sounds identical.
_________________
'85 Westy full camper, Subaru 2.5L, 5 speed SubiGears + 5speedbus shifter kit

[1988M5]

[Crooked Designer]

[Sodo]

[jlrftype7]

[jocoman]

I would pull the starter switch from under the steering wheel and use a screw driver to start the van. see if that helps. the reason I say this is because I had similar problems and it was the lock cylinder.
_________________
'86 Westfalia 2.0L Zetec
'97 Volvo 850 AWD Turbo
" The fun never stops"

[xflyer]

The description of driving on several errands ending with a "no start" is a classic symptom of the need for a better ground to the starter and the additional relay. Often the no crank symptom is heat related. Could happen when hot or cold. The relay improves or cures this problem without replacing half the wiring and getting a new starter.
_________________
1989 Campmobile, 1984 7 passenger beater Vanagon
Both with cool A/C

[Crooked Designer]

Well. It was officially a fluke. No matter how hard I try (or how hard my mechanic tried) we can’t repeat the no start. I guess that’s as good of a problem to have as any. I’m still going to ground the starter for good luck.
_________________
'85 Westy full camper, Subaru 2.5L, 5 speed SubiGears + 5speedbus shifter kit

[jlrftype7]

[jocoman]

Let it sit for a week and then try it!
_________________
'86 Westfalia 2.0L Zetec
'97 Volvo 850 AWD Turbo
" The fun never stops"

[xflyer]

Try driving for an hour till it is hot. Shut off engine for 5 minutes and then try to start.
_________________
1989 Campmobile, 1984 7 passenger beater Vanagon
Both with cool A/C