Suspension setup rules of thumb?

[Schnitzelfuss]

Looking for advice, tips, and comments before I get the pan down on its wheels and tires and start setting up suspension ride height and leveling etc.
For example, if I set all four wheel spindles to roughly the same height above the floor while it’s up on jack stands, will they stay roughly equal to one another once down on its wheels? Or will one end compress more than the other? Or am I wasting my time without the engine and body mounted?
Trying to minimize the multiple ups and downs, spring plate fiddling etc. and get it set best as possible without the engine and body bolted on.
But if that’s the only way, and I’m wasting my time, that would be good to know too.
It’s a four inch narrowed adjustable beam currently at full droop, with dropped spindles. Stock length shocks which btw won’t reach the lower mounts as it sits now. The car had no shocks up front when I bought it, so I’m working through that. My understanding is that should give me about a 2.5” drop. Sticking with drums all around. Spring plates set to eight degrees before bolting them to the axle tubes, which raised them to six degrees. My guess is hat should give me about a 3” drop in the back.
Camber compensator, currently installed.
My desire is 2.5-3.0 inches lowered, no more. Not a pan dragger. Weekend driver, local trips only. Don’t plan to ever drive it on an Interstate highway.
Any wisdom as to the best way to proceed based upon your experience is much appreciated.

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[Brian_e]

What you have will get you close, but there is no way to try and get it exact the first time. There are too many variables to have a standard setting. If the front or rear torsion springs are sagged from before, it will sit lower. If you added or removed a bunch of weight from the body it will sit different.

Once its all together, it will also settle in quite a bit after you drive it around the block.

This is where adjustable spring plates and adjustable beams are super handy. Then you can dial it in very easily after your first trip around the block.

Brian
_________________
So more or less the lazier and stupider you want to be, the nicer quality parts you need to buy.
-Modok

Narrowed beams, Drop adjustable spring plates, Bus disk brake and IRS kits.
www.type-emotorsports.com

Type E Engine Parts and Supplies
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/engine-parts

[smitty24]

Just a couple thoughts: I noticed you have ball joints in the pics. Been there on a few of my BJ cars. Running it at max drop or close...you are going to want the clearanced or longer travel joints. I never had stock ones last when really low. Will need caster shims if you don’t have any.

You may need lowered shocks when done. I used to use KYB gr2 but they seem to have gotten more hit or miss the last 5 years. I’ve used barndoor bus front oil shocks from Napa and they work great on really low front ends. These are lower than lowered KYB gr2 (excel G). I wouldn’t do shocks until I figure out tire size and suspension exactly how I want it, first.

The Empi compensator probably won’t do much if you’re lowered. On swing axles, I lower the back a couple inches then use the CB style compensator. But I make shackle extension plates that relieve some of the preload on the bar. Makes it behave more like a rear sway bar, while still allowing proper swing axle movement.

Other than that, you can mount your parts and get your rear plates set at the 1 outer spline or so, but as Brian stated: things are still going to change some after you mount the body. I like to leave the pan on stands with the weight of the wheels/ brakes etc OFF anyway. There’s always too many variables and adjustments to make.

[Schnitzelfuss]

Thanks Brian and Smitty,
Front beam is narrowed by four inches, so I’m thinking even if the original leaf springs were cut and reused, they should be stiffer than new stock length springs.
The rear torsion bars look new, beefy, and aftermarket, definitely not OEM.
Not planning to go any lower than about three inches, I want the car to be reasonably streetable.
Smitty why does lowering the rear negate the benefits of my camber compensator?
I did install the thinnest (1.5 degree) available castor shims up front before torquing the beam to the frame head, as a just in case kind of thing.

Looking at the adjustable beam, it’s a modified link pin with ball joints? No identifiable markings on it. When I bought the car there were no front shocks attached. When I mount a shock to the lower trailing arm, there is ~50mm gap up top that must be bridged to bolt the top of the shock to the welded nut on the beam. I made a spacer and with a long bolt, it works, but that setup looks a little wonky to me. I imagine there will be significant bend stress on the top attachment. What do others do? Is this gap the reason folks with a lowered front run without front shocks?

[Brian_e]

Have you test fit the body onto the pan with that beam and those new shock towers? They look like they will be really close to the inner fenders. On my 4" beams I build, I use a 3/8" plate, mounted at the end of the tube, and it has a 1" offset in the upright. Even with the offset, there is just enough room to get the nut on the inside of the tower.

https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/front-su...am-1967-on

You have a standard ball joint style beam there. No link pin parts. With the drop spindles, and you not wanting to go super low, the stock style ball joints will have enough movement.

Ideally the shocks are mounted vertical. You can adjust your top spacer length to make them vertical, but I am willing to bet the shock towers you have now are too narrow. The towers on my beams are 31" inside to inside, and they JUST clear the inner wheel well.

Brian
_________________
So more or less the lazier and stupider you want to be, the nicer quality parts you need to buy.
-Modok

Narrowed beams, Drop adjustable spring plates, Bus disk brake and IRS kits.
www.type-emotorsports.com

Type E Engine Parts and Supplies
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/engine-parts

[Schnitzelfuss]

Thanks Brian, yes this beam was on the car when I test drove it. The towers do just fit, but it’s tight, and a PO trimmed some of the front quarter panel on each side. There’s an M12 nut welded to the side at the top of each tower. No shocks were on the beam when I drove it.

[Dan22]

That extension on the upper shock mount looks fishy. No way that will support rapid forceful shock movement. Likely it will flex and just break off after a while, and do nothing to really dampen.

The shock should mount up next to the tower for the best rigidity.

I do not know much about narrowed beams and the challenges associated with them, but mechanically that is not a good condition.

Just FYI.
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=765074

[smitty24]

I mentioned what I did because from the pics, it looked like the spindles were higher up than just a couple inches. If you lower the front with just the spindles and tires, you can probably get away with stock joints and even standard length shocks. It WILL compress down with weight and the torsion arm should line up. I typically run shorter front tires with drop spindles and it does most of my drop. I only go a touch on the adjusters to preload and dial it in.

I mentioned the compensator thing because at 2-3” drop it doesn’t do much. Most swing axle guys don’t use them. I like the CB one because even if you drop down an inch, it adds some stiffening to the rear axle and makes for overall better handling. The early Empi bar was similar design and they had brochures explaining body roll in crosswinds etc. The later Empi design just rests slight tension under stock (positive camber rear tires) and goes into effect on tight curves etc. When you lower the rear of a swing axle, the axles sit farther away from those cups.

[smitty24]

[Schnitzelfuss]

Appreciate the feedback, I’m not comfortable with the top attachment either. When you say shocks without an upper tube, do you mean the ones with just a threaded rod for the top attachment?
Im thinking fabricating and welding up an upper shelf mount bracket is the only mechanically sound solution.
Edit: but that design should probably wait until I have it down on the tires with the suspension under load at roughly my desired height.

[Brian_e]

Figure out how long the bung needs to be to make the shock vertical so the bushings don't bind.

Then make the correct length bung out of 7/8-1" steel with the 12mm hole, and weld the bung to the tower. The will keep the attachment point plenty strong. It will still want to twist your thin upright towers, but you could add a simple rib to those while you have the welder out.

Brian
_________________
So more or less the lazier and stupider you want to be, the nicer quality parts you need to buy.
-Modok

Narrowed beams, Drop adjustable spring plates, Bus disk brake and IRS kits.
www.type-emotorsports.com

Type E Engine Parts and Supplies
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/engine-parts

[Schnitzelfuss]

Thanks!

[Schnitzelfuss]

Ok I think I have plan to set an initial suspension height before lowering the pan to the floor on its tires.
Place a 2x4 that spans across the bottom of the left and right lower trailing arms (I may need to make a wooden saddle for each arm) and raise the front until it is just lifted clear of the jack stands using a floor jack positioned under the center of the beam. Check for a level pan, adjust if needed.
Measure the distance from floor to both wheel spindles.
Do the same for the rear using a scissors jack under each swing axle tube as far outboard as safely possible. Check, adjust for level if needed. Measure the distance from axle wheel spindle to floor.
Adjust front or back or both until the pan is level (probably my most difficult challenge) and the center of the axle spindles at all four corners are the same height above the floor.
Once I get it down on the floor on tires I may not be satisfied with the height but at least it should be reasonably level front to back and side to side.
And it should be easier to do these adjustments and learn what works and what doesn’t with the pan off the car.