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timmy74006
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2004
Posts: 151
Location: NE Oklahoma
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 Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:10 am Post subject: What Lifters to Use With a New Web Cam? |
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With all the discussion on how crappy Scat lifters are, and since it seems that lots of cam manufacturers offer Scat lifters as their lightweight hi performance lifters, what other options are out there, other than ceramic, that will not pit or eat the cam? The only answers I've seen in the last few months is to either have SLR regrind and parkerize new Scat lifters as a bandaid cure, or spend $400+ on ceramics. After buying most of the engine parts already and still having to come up with an adequate cooling system and have the heads opened up in order to lower my compression without sacrificing deck height efficiency, I don't have the money for ceramic lifters. This will be a tourquey, 5500 rpm limit, motor for my 71 bus. Would like the internals to last the life of the engine and not be limited by pitted lifters or flatted cams.
Tim |
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mharney
Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2002
Posts: 8353
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:18 am Post subject: |
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I just used the Webcam lifters, which I think are Scat, and so far no trouble in my 70 bus.
If I really cared about the life, I'd use ceramics, like I did in my 2332 for my Beetle. |
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timmy74006
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2004
Posts: 151
Location: NE Oklahoma
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| mharney wrote: |
I just used the Webcam lifters, which I think are Scat, and so far no trouble in my 70 bus.
If I really cared about the life, I'd use ceramics, like I did in my 2332 for my Beetle. |
What kind of motor setup are you running and how many miles do you have on it? The reason I ask is that I have two sets of Scat lifters, the lube a lobe and the standard lightweight lifters. I did ask WebCam and they said that the Scats would work fine. Apparently, that opinion is in the minority on this list. Can't afford ceramics, especially if I end up using a DTM since I can't find out who makes the 36hp shroud that outperformed everything but the DTM in Jakes tests. If I could go with a cheaper shroud that did a good enough job of cooling the heads, I might be able to scrape and save for ceramics. Still, people have been rebuilding these engines successfully for decades. Something besides ceramic has to be out there and more affordable, hence the original post. |
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Joel Mohr
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 269
Location: High Desert SoCal
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:58 am Post subject: |
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I'm a Web distributor, and I use Mahle lifters with GREAT results....only 1 flat cam in about 8 years....only about 30.00 a set!
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SEE YOU AT THE RACES!!!! |
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timmy74006
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2004
Posts: 151
Location: NE Oklahoma
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| Joel Mohr wrote: |
| I'm a Web distributor, and I use Mahle lifters with GREAT results....only 1 flat cam in about 8 years....only about 30.00 a set! |
Where can I aquire a set of Mahle lifters for this price? Better than a flat cam or pitted lifters. Now if I only knew what to do with these Scat lifters I have.................  |
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clearsurf2001
Samba Vaccinator
Joined: February 26, 2004
Posts: 1671
Location: Dave-AKA-fortyeye-Oceanside, Ca
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| Joel Mohr wrote: |
| I'm a Web distributor, and I use Mahle lifters with GREAT results....only 1 flat cam in about 8 years....only about 30.00 a set! |
Joel ... are these the Brazilian made ones? Any recommendation on SLR treatment on these before installation?
_________________
Get ready for the injection 
| EverettB wrote: |
| Make sure it is coherent. Rodney |
| mharney wrote: |
I think Glenn has an EMPI crank in his engine. |
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mharney
Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2002
Posts: 8353
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Timmeh,
76x88 (1848cc) with Webcam 119. 8.3 compression, DRD Stage 3 heads (stock valve size, mild port and polish with matched intakes, Weber 36 IDF carbs on 28 vents.
Cooling system is all OEM doghouse. My temps are fine. Don't overthink the cooling. Just do it right, and with OEM parts. Make sure you have all the parts in place (I even have the flaps, wired open, no thermostat). My head temps are never over 325 now in the city, and 350-375 on the highway.
I have the DTM on my 2332, and it cools very nicely.
Jake's never going to divulge that information for reasons of his own. One fact is that that exact shroud is not made anymore, AFAIK, so it's moot anyway, unless you get lucky enough to score one. Me, I just like the OEM stuff, unless I have a beast to cool, and the 76x88 is no beast, just a lot more powerful than the stock engine ever dreamed of. I am having a new trans with a higher final drive built for it right now.
The 1971 T2 doghouse shroud is the runner up to DTM and that silly chrome shroud btw. If you have the original 1971 T2 shroud, KEEP it and use it. It apparently cools even better than the Thing shrouds, according to the cooling tests Jakester did. |
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mharney
Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2002
Posts: 8353
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| timmy74006 wrote: |
| Now if I only knew what to do with these Scat lifters I have................. |
Do an engine blow!
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timmy74006
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2004
Posts: 151
Location: NE Oklahoma
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:11 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the info M. Mine is going to be a 78.8 x 94. Haven't decided on Weber 44IDFs. I have a spanish pair, never used, but other than adjusting the idle mixture, I've never really worked on "dialing" in carbs. I have a WebCam 218 and some Scat 1.25:1 rockers. I think I remember Jake saying that if you retard this cam 4° that it will pull stumps with the torque it makes. I do still have the original doghouse on the 71. Just wasn't sure if it would clear the carbs or cool a 2187 well enough. I was also looking into the new CB fuel injection system when it becomes available. Once again, mo money!!! On a different note, and back on topic, I'd be interested in knowing if the Mahle lifters are fine to use right out of the box or should be parkerized as well?
Tim
71 Bus |
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Jake Raby
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:28 am Post subject: |
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I would have divulged the info of which 36 HP shroud it was if the bastards that make it would have even paid for my fuel... They would not pay for ANYTHING!!! I basically did an indpendant study on a product that they have and they were too dumb to pay me for the data. I refuse to see them profit from their lack of giving a damn about doing things the right way..
AND they do not make that shroud any more- the one they replaced it with sucks... Must be cheaper to make-
The 218 does not need a 4 degree retard to pull stumps- just run it straight up and it will do the same.. The 218 is NOT a HP cam, it makes gobs of torque but if you want peak numbers the 218 is NOT for you.
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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timmy74006
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2004
Posts: 151
Location: NE Oklahoma
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Jake Raby wrote: |
I would have divulged the info of which 36 HP shroud it was if the bastards that make it would have even paid for my fuel... They would not pay for ANYTHING!!! I basically did an indpendant study on a product that they have and they were too dumb to pay me for the data. I refuse to see them profit from their lack of giving a damn about doing things the right way..
AND they do not make that shroud any more- the one they replaced it with sucks... Must be cheaper to make-
The 218 does not need a 4 degree retard to pull stumps- just run it straight up and it will do the same.. The 218 is NOT a HP cam, it makes gobs of torque but if you want peak numbers the 218 is NOT for you. |
I fully understand why you wouldn't divulge the info. I was just wishing out loud. Since this is going to be a bus motor and not a race motor, I took your advice when I purchased the 218. (You recommended it on the DTM list.) I figured torque was more important than ponies in a bus, especially for passing on two lane roads. Thanks for the info on timing the cam. One less thing for me to figure out.
Tim 71 Bus |
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mharney
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Joined: June 01, 2002
Posts: 8353
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| The 94's are pretty big for a bus. They'll work, but you can expect some elevated temps and a shorter life. If I were doing a bigger engine than the one I chose, I would stick to 90.5's and probably go to a 78 or 82 crank. |
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timmy74006
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2004
Posts: 151
Location: NE Oklahoma
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| mharney wrote: |
| The 94's are pretty big for a bus. They'll work, but you can expect some elevated temps and a shorter life. If I were doing a bigger engine than the one I chose, I would stick to 90.5's and probably go to a 78 or 82 crank. |
Well, I have the 78.8 crank, but the Scat kit I bought came with the 94s and the case is already machined for them. The good thing is that it's not a Westy and I boubt that it will ever carry the full load of 7 passengers. Downside is it will be air conditioned. Modern compressor and all, but still a couple of extra H.P. in the end. I have CB 044 round port heads with 42 x 37 valves, but will need to have the chambers opened up a bit to keep the compression around 8:1 with proper deck height for better combustion efficiency. |
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Jake Raby
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:49 am Post subject: |
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Torque is always more important than HP unless you run around operating at an RPM higher than 5,252.. Below that torque is higher than HP, the two do not cross till 5252 RPM- its the formula.
Not enough people realize that... Tune for Torque- its what you and your vehicle feels..
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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Ipaintem
Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2004
Posts: 522
Location: Brown Summit N.C.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| I am running A 78.8 x 92 8.5:1 all Scat motor with wedgeport heads and I havent had any problems with the lifters or cooling. 36 hp shroud and with large oil cooler and a kymco super cooler with fan that hardley ever gets turned on. On a 100+ degree day the oil temp stayed at 210 for 25 miles at 60 mph. However< I am also runnign the Mallory unilite dist. which I think keeps temps in check because of its accuracy in keeping time. I have had Scat lifters in several motors and never had a problem, so? This is just my 2 cents. |
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Jake Raby
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:37 am Post subject: |
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Speed the car up and you'll see the oil temps climb... Oil temps are a direct reflection of speed/ RPM.
Whatputs a cooling system to the test is sustained runs to over 70 MPH for long periods of time...
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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timmy74006
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2004
Posts: 151
Location: NE Oklahoma
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| clearsurf2001 wrote: |
| Joel Mohr wrote: |
| I'm a Web distributor, and I use Mahle lifters with GREAT results....only 1 flat cam in about 8 years....only about 30.00 a set! |
Joel ... are these the Brazilian made ones? Any recommendation on SLR treatment on these before installation? |
Still looking for a reply to the Brazilian question, a need for Parkerization, and where to purchase these Mahle lifters..............Please
Tim |
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Joel Mohr
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 269
Location: High Desert SoCal
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:04 am Post subject: |
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I sell them, and I'm sure all you should have to do is ask for them at your local shop.....or I'll ship....
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SEE YOU AT THE RACES!!!! |
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jamestwo
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 2203
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:23 am Post subject: |
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Mahle are good, but heavy. Try to get a set of the old two piece eatons if you can. They wiegh about 82 grams vs 92 for Scats and 98 grams for the mahle.
The ceramic lifters are 560 now  |
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Jake Raby
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:05 am Post subject: |
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Ceramics will be going up AGAIN soon... The silicon Nitride used to make them is the same thats used to make some of the tiles on the Space Shuttle so with the Space Program up and going again the Aerospace guys are hogging up all the raw material....
The ceramic lifters are worth 1K if you ask me, and I'd pay that for the security they give me on EVERY ENGINE that I build...
I'd expect to see ceramics at 800 bucks soon....... I'm not complaining one bit, because they are worth every dime.... (and they weigh 61 grams)
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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