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old_man
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2018
Posts: 1395
Location: Newfoundland
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 Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:57 pm Post subject: '67. I rebuilt my carbs now I need help with brakes. |
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So I rebuilt my carbs. Here are some before and after pics. Once again the ultrasonic cleaner came in handy.
BTW, anyone ever have their carb make a rythmic whistle? It went away, it just seemed odd. LINK.
Anyways, my actual problems. Brakes are close to useless. I had this problem before I put the car away for the winter. You press the brake and nothing happens until your almost to the floor and then it lightly starts to bite. If I had a bit of park brake the brakes bite a bit better but there seems to be some asymmetry as well, grabs more on one side.
I swapped out the two aftermarket unknown front calipers with two correct calipers. Bled the hell out of it. One of the rear brakes had a broken leaf spring which I replaced. Cool. I think my problem lies with adjusting the rear brakes, my theory is they are really poorly adjusted and all the brake pedal travel is spent moving one (or more) of the shoes to start making contact. I've adjusted a few of rear drum brakes in my time but never any with 2 star adjusters per side. Is there a good write up on how to adjust the rear drums? I think I am missing something. Master cylinder is newish as well and I have a Bentley and Autobook. |
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22457
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2024 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: '67. I rebuilt my carbs now I need help with brakes. |
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About the only book that I know of for adjusting rear brakes would be the Muir book, How to Keep your VW alive. Normally I adjust both adjusters, first one then the other, making sure I can still spin the tire. You can look thru the window (a hole that gets a rubber plug to close it off) and watch the brake pad get closer to the drum so you know that you're turning the adjuster the right way. Both adjusters are right hand thread, which means you'll turn one one way and the other one the opposite way (one up, and the other down to tighten them up). I hope this helps.
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
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Multi69s
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5376
Location: Lefty, CA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: '67. I rebuilt my carbs now I need help with brakes. |
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This was the way that I was thought to adjust VW brakes forty years ago, and I still use it. Grab your favorite tool, mine is a brake adjusting toll that I modified the bend, and ground down the end to fit the VW brakes, and start tightening. I am not super accurate on how many clicks I do at a time, but go back and forth until I spin the hub and I start to get shoe drag. I don't know if the next step counts, but I step on the brake pedal to equalize the shoes in the drum. next I crank down the adjusters on both sides until the drum is locked up, and the adjusters will no longer move.
Then I back out the adjusters, one click on one, then the same on the other, I keep doing this until the hub spins with a light swoosh sounds as it spins. The shoes are never perfectly concentric with the drum, so you always get this little swoosh. With this technique, I get a high pedal, and the shoes tend to wear evenly.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight= |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22457
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: '67. I rebuilt my carbs now I need help with brakes. |
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That's a better description of what I was getting at. In my case I've done it often enough that I don't really think much about it. I also use a modified brake adjusting tool (trimmed on the side to narrow it up a little just for VW brake work).
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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old_man
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2018
Posts: 1395
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: '67. I rebuilt my carbs now I need help with brakes. |
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So I tried a bunch of stuff. No joy.
-Took apart and cleaned rear cylinders.
-Bleed everything repeatedly
-Adjusted rears to the point the wheels barely turn
It's to the point that foot to the floor I slightly better than coasting. It's terrible.
I was bleeding the brakes using a pressure bleeder. When I push on the brake pedal there is right away a noticeable increase in fluid squirting out so I don't think the brake rod that is misadjusted.
Only thing I can think of is a bad master cylinder at this point. It's only 6 years old.
Ideas? |
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W1K1
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Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4925
Location: Southern AB
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: '67. I rebuilt my carbs now I need help with brakes. |
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unless you have a big air bubble trapped in there somewhere, or a bad/leaky line, the pressure bleeder should get you a firm pedal
Sometimes you have to get aggressive with the pumping to free up bubbles
your local flaps should have a rebuild kit available, I bought one for my FAG master cylinder off the shelf from my local parts guys, i just replaced the seals in an original master cylinder that was in good shape.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php
1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap |
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old_man
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2018
Posts: 1395
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: '67. I rebuilt my carbs now I need help with brakes. |
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| If I get a new one, do I need ATE or will 'centric' from RockAuto do? |
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Multi69s
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Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5376
Location: Lefty, CA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2024 9:52 pm Post subject: Re: '67. I rebuilt my carbs now I need help with brakes. |
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Has the car been sitting awhile, without being used, or did it just develop brake problems? I ask because because brake fluid is hygroscopic, and the water it absorbs could damage the master cylinder. Plus without use the cups tend to shrink. You could pull your MC apart, and look at its condition. Any pitting or scoring, and its toast. Also, when was the last time you changed your rubber brake hoses?
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight= |
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Multi69s
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Location: Lefty, CA
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old_man
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2018
Posts: 1395
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 3:26 am Post subject: Re: '67. I rebuilt my carbs now I need help with brakes. |
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| Multi69s wrote: |
| Has the car been sitting awhile, without being used, or did it just develop brake problems? I ask because because brake fluid is hygroscopic, and the water it absorbs could damage the master cylinder. Plus without use the cups tend to shrink. You could pull your MC apart, and look at its condition. Any pitting or scoring, and its toast. Also, when was the last time you changed your rubber brake hoses? |
Rubber hoses and MC are about 6-7 years old. Car sits during the winter in a dry garage.
It was having problems last year due to that broken brake leaf spring. Took me a while to get a replacement. I'm assuming the star adjuster would back too much and cause me to use a lot of pedal for not that great braking force. I just replaced the leaf spring and calipers and now the car won't stop. A possibility is that I used too much pedal travel and damaged the seals. I know this can happen on old MCs when you are bleeding if you all of a sudden use pedal travel that has never been used before, the seals could go over rough (corroded) cylinder surface that has never been used before. |
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W1K1
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Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4925
Location: Southern AB
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 9:02 am Post subject: Re: '67. I rebuilt my carbs now I need help with brakes. |
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I would pull the MC and inspect the bore and seals, since it's not stopping anyways you are not any worse off on the bleeding.
Take the guts to your local napa and see if they have a matching bore size kit
_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php
1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap |
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old_man
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2018
Posts: 1395
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 10:12 am Post subject: Re: '67. I rebuilt my carbs now I need help with brakes. |
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| W1K1 wrote: |
I would pull the MC and inspect the bore and seals, since it's not stopping anyways you are not any worse off on the bleeding.
Take the guts to your local napa and see if they have a matching bore size kit |
I just said screw it and ordered new ATE MC and rear cylinders. I think the MC that is in there is a cheapy that I bought after I broke my new ATE one accidentally 5 years ago. The original one was junked due to massive corrosion.
I probably will take it apart later sometime today. I don't have a lot of faith in my local parts stores here. They are super nice and mean well but almost nothing is ever in stock and it's quicker and cheaper to order stuff from RockAuto. Joys of living on an island in the middle of the Atlantic. |
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old_man
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2018
Posts: 1395
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2024 11:24 am Post subject: Re: '67. I rebuilt my carbs now I need help with brakes. |
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Well, no smoking gun but the red hue does tell a story. |
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Multi69s
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Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5376
Location: Lefty, CA
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old_man
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2018
Posts: 1395
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Today 11:00 am Post subject: Re: '67. I rebuilt my carbs now I need help with brakes. |
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So new master cylinder, new rear cylinders (both ATE) and new rebuilt front calipers.
Good news: I can brake again. Good pressure. Pedal doesn't go to the floor. MC was most likely the cause.
Bad news: Rear left drum locks up under moderate braking. I don't know why. Could it be poorly adjusted star adjusters? I'm not sure. I feel like I had this problem before and never really investigated it. I did notice that drum has a bit of an gear oil leak. Could the shoes be impregnated enough with oil that it causes it to lock up super easily?
Also what does one do with this junk?
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22457
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Today 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: '67. I rebuilt my carbs now I need help with brakes. |
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Very possible that the gear oil soaked the shoes. I'd get an axle seal kit along with some new shoes, and go thru it.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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old_man
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2018
Posts: 1395
Location: Newfoundland
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| Posted: Today 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: '67. I rebuilt my carbs now I need help with brakes. |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| Very possible that the gear oil soaked the shoes. I'd get an axle seal kit along with some new shoes, and go thru it. |
How can you tell when it's time to replace drums? |
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