| Author |
Message |
SevenEight
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2024
Posts: 10
Location: Sweden
|
 Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2024 2:01 am Post subject: Engine project - upright 1500S-ish |
 |
|
Ok, so here's the idea. I want to build an engine based on parts that were avaliable before 66...ish. The VW type 3 1500S turned up in 64, the 1300 F showed up in 65-66. The idea then is to build an engine around the 1500S but upright. My car has a D-case 1200 today (with no serial becauise my dad changed the engine to a brand new exchange engine back in 1977!). Thing is, I got the carbs and the distributor off a friend of my dad from his 1500S - and I thought it would be fun to kind of base an engine off those. Car is still 6v and will stay 6v - so flywheel is maybe going to be tricky finding since I guess I need a 200mm.
I want a single port engine with the carbs from the 1500S, 32PDSIT. Either a 1300 or 1500. Started looking for a 1300 F case because I think they are easier to find at the moment. A late D case with 1300 heads or 1500S heads would also work I guess. I think I have a set of 1500S heads...
So - what do I need in terms of parts and headwork to get a 1300 "S" or an upright 1500S - comp ratio, cam, etc. What should I start saving money for? Case is going to need work regardless of what I find but do I need a counterwight crank?
Intakes - I'm thinking extended stock 1500S so that the carbs sit a little higher. Yes, carbs will need work.
Exhaust? What do I want?
I mean the 1500S had....54hp...will I get there with a 1300 "S"? So, pre '66 ish looking, kind of like someone bought a type 1 in 64 and his buddy bought a 1500S and now the beetle guy wants to beat him? You get it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7854
Location: Videbaek Denmark
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2024 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Engine project - upright 1500S-ish |
|
|
You can get 54 hp out of a sgl carbed stock look 1300 which still acts basicly like a stock engine, only stronger. But you of course need to know how to detail everything from rotating assembly to exhaust. Been there done that
The 1500 S carbs are very specific and sensetive to changes in the set up. One of the caviats is compression. The engine NEEDS 8,5 CR especially with a stock cam. With a better and more modern cam you can ease a little on that. Also, increasing displacement to 1600 cc helps smoothing out the obsticles.
For average tuning it matters less, but if you want a good result the shape and size of the intake manifolds matters a great deal. The classic with just extending the stock type 3 manifolds will work, but shaping the manifold better can soon release both driveability and hp.
The older sgl relief cases with the smaller oil galley can benefit a lot from having the galley enlarged to about late model sizes. Then you can also go with a 25 or even 26 mm oil pump without getting excessive oil pressure. However, I like to instal a CSP pressure relief cover just to keep pressure in check.
Cams. The CB 2280 is a good contender. If you want more rpm the Nowak 40 is good. Both can provide just about stock idle.
Heads need some work, and a couple of more modern details inside.
Exhaust can be a simple gutted and modified stock muffler (Shorty header style)
If you decide to go with a set of dual 32´s on a 1300 displacement I suggest you use a set from a newer dual port. They are easier to dial in
_________________
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SevenEight
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2024
Posts: 10
Location: Sweden
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2024 2:56 am Post subject: Re: Engine project - upright 1500S-ish |
|
|
| Alstrup wrote: |
You can get 54 hp out of a sgl carbed stock look 1300 which still acts basicly like a stock engine, only stronger. But you of course need to know how to detail everything from rotating assembly to exhaust. Been there done that
The 1500 S carbs are very specific and sensetive to changes in the set up. One of the caviats is compression. The engine NEEDS 8,5 CR especially with a stock cam. With a better and more modern cam you can ease a little on that. Also, increasing displacement to 1600 cc helps smoothing out the obsticles.
For average tuning it matters less, but if you want a good result the shape and size of the intake manifolds matters a great deal. The classic with just extending the stock type 3 manifolds will work, but shaping the manifold better can soon release both driveability and hp.
The older sgl relief cases with the smaller oil galley can benefit a lot from having the galley enlarged to about late model sizes. Then you can also go with a 25 or even 26 mm oil pump without getting excessive oil pressure. However, I like to instal a CSP pressure relief cover just to keep pressure in check.
Cams. The CB 2280 is a good contender. If you want more rpm the Nowak 40 is good. Both can provide just about stock idle.
Heads need some work, and a couple of more modern details inside.
Exhaust can be a simple gutted and modified stock muffler (Shorty header style)
If you decide to go with a set of dual 32´s on a 1300 displacement I suggest you use a set from a newer dual port. They are easier to dial in |
1300cc
For a 1300cc - suitable carb and intake? 1500 intake and what carb?
Do I need a CW crank for this? Going for like a 74mm crank - feels like that overshoots a bit...and what about the heads then, small valves and I guess smaller ports (at least to begin with).
1500/1600cc
This feels like the most logical, but not the most....fun... I mean a 1600cc single port has to be a the most reasonable single port engine to build. Again, started thinking about single carb because it's super stealthy...so what carb would be the one to look for in this case? And again - crank...stock or something else? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wagen19
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 698
Location: germany
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2024 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Engine project - upright 1500S-ish |
|
|
| SevenEight wrote: |
Ok, so here's the idea. I want to build an engine based on parts that were avaliable before 66...ish.
|
In Jan 63 the 1500cc bus with 42 hp appeared and in Aug 65 the 1500 "H" engine with 44 hp appeared in the bus. (one year earlier than in beetle) The high compression 1500 S type 3 came Aug 63. So thinking a bus-type 1500 engine with type 3 1500 S pistons and heads, or 1600 cc engine either with 32 mm type 3 carbs, or the common SOLEX 34 PCI, used by german profis, for ex. RIECHERT, or TDE. You could easyly expect around 50 and 60 german HP. Going strictly original, find a original 63 to 65 bus engine or case for 1500 cc to start with. In eary times the original 1500 cc bus exhaust was altered for 2 tail pipes. Good is the old original 009 distributer and good oil cooling is important! (356 oil cooler) In the first edition only of the book "Jetzt mache ich ihn schneller. Band 7" (now I make him faster) you can find a lot of pics and period details about the 1500 bus engine fo the beetle. Thinking also about a longer type 3 trans. (In Aug 65 the type 3 got 1600 cc and in Jan 66 the the dual port heads were added)
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=jetzt+mache+ich+ihn+schneller |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SevenEight
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2024
Posts: 10
Location: Sweden
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2024 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Engine project - upright 1500S-ish |
|
|
[quote="wagen19"]
Funny thing, I have a new old stock 356 cooler. I have also been thinking of the type 3 gbx's. Will look in to the book.
I also have the distributor from a 1500S, that should at least be useable if I rund the 1500S carbs. Maybe even with a single carb? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7854
Location: Videbaek Denmark
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2024 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: Engine project - upright 1500S-ish |
|
|
| SevenEight wrote: |
1300cc
For a 1300cc - suitable carb and intake? 1500 intake and what carb?
Stock will work with both.
Do I need a CW crank for this? Going for like a 74mm crank - feels like that overshoots a bit...and what about the heads then, small valves and I guess smaller ports (at least to begin with).
No, "just" a balanced rotating ass.
1500/1600cc
This feels like the most logical, but not the most....fun... I mean a 1600cc single port has to be a the most reasonable single port engine to build. Again, started thinking about single carb because it's super stealthy...so what carb would be the one to look for in this case? And again - crank...stock or something else? |
Way back in the 2000´s I built a couple of 1600 sgl ports. One for a Ghia and one for a ´70 stock bus. The bus got a 2280 cam, stock heads, only 8,1 cr. 30 Pict3 carb with the corresponding svda distributor and a slightly opened up stoick bus muffler. In the bus, if you didnt know it you didnt notice it. But when cruising with other stock busses you´d notice better hill power.
The Ghia engine also got a 2280 cam. slightly ported stock heads, 8,5 CR Empi end castings, CB center section and a stock 34 mm Solex carb. Exhaust was a std Ernst unit. It pulls 63 hp at about 4300 and keeps pulling to 4700 or so, and around 120 Nm torque.
In early 2016 I built another 2280 cammed 1600 sgl port. This time a little more detailed. Ported heads, reshaped chambers, 36/32 mm valves, dual height seats etc etc. 8,7 CR, split lift rockers, Empi/CB intake, 34 Solex w 27,5 mm venturi and a NOS Sebring muffler. The extra head work and the muffler definitely paid off, with 72 hp at around 4400 and a nice 132 Nm torque. In order to make the engine look as stock as possible within reason I painted the aluminium manifold same colour grey as a stock one, but the boot connectors at the joints of course reveal it for people who know what it should look like.
34 PCI´s is of course a nice old school option. But, knowing what I know today I would be tempted to go with a little more displacement. Believe it or not, even the relatively small 34 mm butterfly´s result in too low manifold vacuum on cruise for my liking. Going to the old school 1680 displacement basicly cures the problem. If you run the 12 mm balance tube you either need to go with a mechanical only dizzy, or go 1776. A well built 1776 sgl port will easily pull 90-95 hp. Even 100 if you get the heads, carbs and exhaust to play ball. And still with stockish idle.
_________________
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wagen19
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 698
Location: germany
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2024 12:26 am Post subject: Re: Engine project - upright 1500S-ish |
|
|
[quote="SevenEight"]
| wagen19 wrote: |
Funny thing, I have a new old stock 356 cooler. I have also been thinking of the type 3 gbx's. Will look in to the book.
I also have the distributor from a 1500S, that should at least be useable if I rund the 1500S carbs. Maybe even with a single carb? |
If you want to start with a period original unmachined 1500 case with the right engine number before 1966, you can look here: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/chassisdating.php
Original VW exchange engines 1500 cc, 42 hp after Aug 1965 got the suffix "G". A 200 mm flywheel with 109 teeth was stock for type 2 and 3 from around mid 1962 and 1963. There is a spare 200 mm - 109 th flywheel for combination with new-type cranks with O-ring-seal also. 211 105 271 C |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7854
Location: Videbaek Denmark
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2024 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Engine project - upright 1500S-ish |
|
|
To continue my post above, wrt actual power of a sgl port.
Below is a 1600 industrial engine which I was preparing for the street, but had to take it apart due to very poor workmanship on the engine. I replaced the cam with a 2280, optimized the deck height so CR became 7,9, 1,25/1,1 rockers, did not touch the heads, Kadrons on steel manifolds, 009 and a Bugpack 1 3/8" header & muffler.
_________________
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wagen19
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 698
Location: germany
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 22, 2024 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: Engine project - upright 1500S-ish |
|
|
[quote="SevenEight"][quote="wagen19"]
| SevenEight wrote: |
rund the 1500S carbs. Maybe even with a single carb? |
For a stock single carb you have to think, you need the fitting manifold. The 42 hp engines had the 28 PICT or 28 PICT-1 carbs. the 44 hp H-engine had 30 PICT-1 or -2. But if you want to beat the 1500 S, top speed on paper 135 km/h, you need nearly 60 hp at around 4300 with type 3 trans in your beetle. With only one 30 mm single carb not that easy I think. If it´s more about, what kind of parts were available in 1964 to beat a good running 1500 S, maybe also at full throttle hill down, see tests, you can or must also think about OKRASA or 356. But treat your car as a whole. The VW factory and german TÜV approved speedlimit for otherwise stock 64 beetles was 135 km/h and around 55 hp. (In 1953 the beetle had 24,5 hp, in 1963 the beetle had 34 hp but the 1500 S got 54 hp!) What difference! And how about your budget? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
