411/412 004 four speed trans rebuild (new 12-7 @ 12:51 pm)

[Tony Z]

Hi Ray

I am going past an SKF dealer either tomorrow or Wednesday. If you want, I can pop in to check if they have or can get. Being on the other side of the planet, maybe there is stock here somewhere?

Whatsapp or sms me exactly what you need and I'll take it from there.
+27 833 418 nine 37

Tony Z

[raygreenwood]

Thank you for the offer! If you find them let me know the price please and we can see if its worth the cost.

I should have a reply from Summit sometime tomorrow.

The problem with this bearing is not that its out of production. Its in "Limited" production. They only make them every so often. They also fit more than a handful of transmissions.....almost always on the pinion shaft. They are in demand. Ray

[raygreenwood]

So.....Rockauto just sent me an,e-mail notice that my parts are back in stock.....Timken M86648 pinion bearings for about $39 each....which is a great price.

I caught the e-mail with the hour of when it was sent and ordered two (its all that my budget allows this week or I would have ordered 4 or 6.....I have three trans that need rebuilding).

We will see if either I get a notice that parts are actually out of stock......and my money is refunded....or they arrive next Tuesday as scheduled.

By the way....I got a reply from Summit racing this morning. NO.....they do not have the parts in stock and they say they are special order....which to me....means they are "hoping" they can simply order them from Timken.....which they usually can't.

These appear to be a limited production bearing....but with the speed they go out of stock....its a good bet that it fits more than a few cars and is usually used as a pinion bearing.
The sheer fact that Summit lists it says that it must fit a few odd American car transmissions......I think long ago I found a note that it fits some 1970s International brand transmissions.

I think this also fits the pinion shaft on the type 3 003 automatic. Ray

[Tony Z]

Well done.
I managed to find the part listing today in a catalog today at a local bearing supplier - unfortunately, it was a catalog from a company which he didnt stock.
I was going to head to the local agent for the other company early next week.
O yes, and the catalog says you need two for the box.

[raygreenwood]

And as an update...yet again....Rockauto sent a notice that parts are NOT in stock. Money refunded.

I got a little tweaked and contacted RockAuto customer service and asked..."what gives".

Got a very prompt reply back ...I love Rockauto customer service...right up there with McMaster Carr...stellar!

They noted that when the pic sheet went to the warehouse, teh computer showed stock but when they went to pull the parts they were nowhere to be found. They suggested trying other companies and keeping the "in stock" notice as a backup. They apologized.

So....several e-mails back and forth with Summit:

E-mail reply #1: Not a stock item and they must special order.

My Reply: so its nowhere in YOUR stock yet your site says it is. How can I get these.

E-mail #2: If your order them from Summit...we will order them in for you

My Reply:....and the gist is ....how do you know that Timken has any stock on a limited production bearing ...and meanwhile my $$$ is tied up for months while you wait on production that may not happen until the total amount of orders reach X amount?

E-mail #3: Because Summit has an account with Timken (paraphrasing here) and we do not offer something unless we know we can get it.

My reply:....so have YOU...SUMMIT....contacted Timken in this very case to verify that they have stock of this bearing?

E-mail # 4: Yes....this is coming from Timken. They have stock.

So....it appears....unless they are full of sh*t that it is an option to order from Summit racing. They are about $75 each.....not cheap.....but available is available.

And thank you Tony Z for your efforts! Ray

[1500king]

Interesting thread!!

I have a dead 004 out of my 412LS, was replaced due to the car being hit in the rear while parked and in gear. The owner at the time bought a new replacement from VW in the UK(late 1980's) but never again drove the car. He also ordered all the shift linkages, stick, boot and gate but never fitted them and are new in the VW bags still.

Watching closely, I have gone out of my way to find all the Matra/Peiseler/Kukko transmission and diff tools for these over the years. Very hard to find, but never the less now done.

I expect parts will be an equal challenge!!

[raygreenwood]

[sodbuster]

Hi Ray. Looking good so far! I finally got around to checking this thread out. There is a lot to those gear boxes; they are not for the faint of heart. I noticed you were inquiring and curious about the "etched" markings on the ring gear itself.

Let me say that yes they are in fact factory markings etched in the manufacturing process of the ring and pinion set.
Part of the process is "running in" the ring and pinion set to find its optimal point for quiet running. VW used to have the machine operators record certain info on the ring gear during the process. VW stopped doing this step of the process in the early-mid 1970’s. So after a while ring and pinion sets stopped being etched.

1. The pinion depth setting. Each ring and pinion design is given a base setting where it can be run this designation is referred to as "r". So this number is the deviation from "r" on the master gauge where this ring and pinion set runs quietest. This measurement is in hundredths of a millimeter. This number is needed by the technician when rebuilding the unit using the proper pinion depth measuring tool. The deveation from "r" is given the designation "ro". So in your case it reads ro=38.

2. Machine operator code. Pretty self-explanatory. This tells the powers that be who was at the switch and on which machine when the gear set was made.

3. Matching number. Once the ring and pinion set is “run in” it becomes a matched gear set and should not be interchanged with any other gears. Matching numbers helped to prevent mix ups in initial factory assembly as well as rebuilding. This number is etched on the pinion gear as well as the ring gear. Sometimes all this info is etched on both gears of the set.

Hope that adds to the project.

[raygreenwood]

Thanks for the info!
This project is not lost....just delayed for a,while. Almoat a year ago now ai moved. It all got sealed up in a box. This was just fine as I was stopped due to not being able to locate new pinion shaft bearings.

Finally got some around this February.

The problem with the type 4 trans....to your point....is not so much getting the ring and pinion mesh specs....but getting the unique tools to set them up.

I am lucky with the one I am rebuilding....that the r&p....is not worn out and it in g9od adjustment.

Since the pinion and differential bearings that are in it are starting to show visible...but not yet measureable at the shaft and gear....wear......I have caught it early enough that if I can replace them and replicate the same gear set position....after applying correct pre-load to the new bearings....I will be set.

So.....the differential side ring settings are known....and the plan is to measure the axial posit8on of the ring gear. The radial position can be checked and be known by checking backlash between the ring and pinion. I can correct excessive backlash with the diff side adjuster rings....and then measure axial location of the pinion with jig I made.

The nice thing with this transmission type....is that the pinion axial depth is pre-set t9 the ring gear. The only thing that will change that is if when I change the outer pinion shaft bearing.....if the bearing and race add or subtract from pinion gear position. If they do..mits just add or subtract from the main shim inside the bell housing.

I have a really good inch pound torque wrench with spinner for setting first diff bearing preload....then remove.....then pinion bearing preload....then the two combined on install.

It also has occoured to me that since the pinion bearings are in good shape and in correct running position.....I can also simply check the pattern of the gear set and photograph from a set point.....install new bearings, set pre-load, set differential side position with the adjusting rings....set backlash.....and then check the mesh pattern with paste again....and adjust position at the shim until the pattern matches again. Ray

I finished a jig fixture

[CAVEHEAD]

Hi Ray,

I remember seeing a recent follow up relating to refreshing / rebuild of a four speed type 4 manual transmission, but can't find now. I just got back from a visit to see Chris in Indy and purchasing his set on conversion parts to include the four speed previously installed in his 412 wagon. Can you help me find the step by step on getting it ready for service ?

Best Regards,
CaveHead

[raygreenwood]

I am not aware of anyone else posting a how to for a 004 transmission. This one is still waiting. To many other projects in the way and I cannot use the transmission anyway until those are done.

It may be spring before I get back to it.

However....start a thread and I can walk you through it. This thread has most of what is required for disassembly to get you started. I can give you a list of parts to buy. Ray

[CAVEHEAD]

Thank you Ray , I'll start a thread when I get started on the rebuild

[raygreenwood]

Just a placeholder update:

I have not forgotten this at all. Its still wrapped up waiting.

I have other items to finish out front...notably the 1.8L build

I did find the pinion bearings as I noted in 2019. Yes...Summit Racing is the way to go for these. I found out that they were not jerking me around. Their site lists "in stock"...but its not true.

It is a stock item....but they order them in as needed. Expect 4-6 weeks.

I am always working on a lot of little things on this car when I cannot work on the big things.

Going through the parts and methods I was planning for this transmission and the differential jig fixture I have built....which is way too much of a pain to use accurately ....so I decided nt to use it. I decided that since I caught this transmission BEFORE there were any permanently damaged bearings....that the bearing adjustment and mesh were correct.

I established this by using gear paste and looking at the mesh markings on the ring gear. I will be posting the before and after pictures as I get back to this.

All that needed to be done was a very slight adjustment to ring gear backlash. That can be adjusted simply with a dial indicator and the side adjuster rings.

I can take a quick reference measurement of the old pinion bearing location with a dial indicator with the differential removed. Once the new pinion bearings are installed on the shaft and the preload is set, I will install it in the case and check with dial indicator again. If the new pinion bearing has gotten closer or farther away from the location of original bearing I can adjust that at the steel shim under the pinion carrier flange.

Then remove the pinion carrier and put it aside. Install the differential with new bearings in the case and adjust preload with the adjusting ring opposite the ring gear teeth.

When that is set, remove the diff, install the pinion carrier and diff....and then run the gears with paste again to insure I got it back to the original pattern or better.

Hopefully coming in 2024! Ray

[Lars S]

I have two spare gearboxes on the shelf, each about 150.000km.
When I rock the drive shaft output flanges I can feel a little play (just visible at the outer edge of the flange). About the same play on both.
Is this to be considered as normal for the milage? (should it be zero play when new?)



Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold

[raygreenwood]

[Lars S]

Once again Ray, thank you so much for sharing your insights, a great help to us!

/Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold

[Lars S]

Forgot to say Ray, and this is partly what made me ask, I also have a 914 "Porsche 901" gearbox on the shelf with some 120.000km on it, it seems to have absolutely zero play at the output flanges....just curious if you happen to know if it might be a design difference or what?

/Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold

[raygreenwood]