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advinnie
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2011
Posts: 1405
Location: oxfordshire
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 Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2024 11:07 am Post subject: Supercharged 1600 Vw beetle |
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Hi all. I have a 1600 1971 Vw beetle that I have but a AMR500 supercharger on. The engine start and runs just fine except for two issues that I’m not to sure how to solve. The car I am using is a Weber SCOE 40 and is jetted as follows
Idles .60f8
Mains1.52
Pumps 0.60
Vents 30mm
Emission F11
Airs 1.85
So the two issues.
1st is that if I open the throttle to fast the engine will just start to die, if I hold the throttle down the engine will stall. I have to slowly depress the accelerator pedal.
The 2nd issue is when in neutral if I was to raise the rpms in steps of 100rpm and wait for a period of time before increasing by another 100 rpm from idle to 2,200 rpm all is good BUT between 2,200 to 2,500 rpm the engine is not happy. I start to get black smoke coming out of the exhaust and the engine goes lumpy and is just not happy. As soon as I go above 2,500 rpm the black smoke goes and the engine sound good again.
So this to me is indicating that I am going rich between 2,200 and 2,500 rpm so if I’m right does this mean that the idles are not dropping out in time or the mains are coming in to early?
Any advice on what’s going on and how to solve this issues
Cheers all
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20765
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2024 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: Supercharged 1600 Vw beetle |
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What distribuitor are you using?...
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns"
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79240
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2024 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: Supercharged 1600 Vw beetle |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
| What distribuitor are you using?... |
Looks like a 123
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי |
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advinnie
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2011
Posts: 1405
Location: oxfordshire
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2024 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: Supercharged 1600 Vw beetle |
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| Yep it’s a 123 distributor. Max timing set at 3500 rpm (30° BTDC) and regarding timing 1° per PSI |
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clonebug
Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2005
Posts: 4130
Location: NW Washington
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2024 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: Supercharged 1600 Vw beetle |
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Invest in a Quality AFR gauge and sensor.
I prefer the PLX brand that I have had since 2014. It has never failed in over 50,000 miles.
It will make jetting a much easier process.
_________________
| richardcraineum wrote: |
| I'm so ignorant of efi I don't even know the difference between batch, sequential blah blah blah .. |
| cbeck wrote: |
| His user name in a previous life was dick head. |
My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936 |
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advinnie
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2011
Posts: 1405
Location: oxfordshire
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2024 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Supercharged 1600 Vw beetle |
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| I have a stock exhaust, where would the best place be to fit the O2 sensor? |
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rayjay
Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2008
Posts: 1565
Location: Buford GA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2024 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: Supercharged 1600 Vw beetle |
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| advinnie wrote: |
| I have a stock exhaust, where would the best place be to fit the O2 sensor? |
One of the most basic facts of hopping up engines is that the engine is just an air pump. On your air pump you have greatly increased the inlet air flow. This has to be balanced out by increasing the exhaust flow. The stock muffler limits the power output of a totally stock engine so on your engine it's going to cause all sorts of carburation issues.
You need to tell us what your advance curve is not just the max timing.
Revving the engine in neutral is unlikely to get enough air flowing through the carb to get it off the idle circuits. |
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BFB
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014
Posts: 2520
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2024 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Supercharged 1600 Vw beetle |
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Not that there might not be a timing issue but this problem isnt timing, this is the typical DCOE issue of needing to roll on the throttle.
That 40 DCOE is massive for a 1600 and when you floor it your losing vacuum signal to the carb which means no vacuum to pull fuel out of the well.
I’ll bet if while you drive it if you roll on the throttle it’ll pick up speed, and if you pump the throttle itll pick up too, right?
But then in higher rpms the mains kick in and it runs pig rich.
Since both carb barrels run into a single plenum you can tune each side of the carb differently, like running a smaller choke on one side than the other or different jetting.
It’ll help if you run smaller chokes to keep vacuum signal higher but then you may also need to change to larger auxiliary venturis to keep the mains from coming in too soon.
Dont go doing stupid stuff like drilling more transition holes or wasting time with emulsion tubes ( yet ). You can try running larger pumps but if that helps at all it wont solve the issue. You need more vacuum in the carb throat and then youll need to lean it out for higher rpms.
Thats a Joblow kit right? You should probably talk to him 1st as im sure hes got them all lined out and will tell you exactly what you need.
If you dont think the 40 is a little big, consider this that i have a 45 on a 2276 running 15lbs of boost. FWIW, i had the shaft split on that 45 so now it has a primary & secondary throat. I have damn near as much in that carb as what some EFI costs. Ha!
Good luck
_________________
"how am i supposed to torque the rear wheel nut to 250 ft lbs??? " - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
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DesertSasquatchXploration
Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2021
Posts: 927
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2024 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: Supercharged 1600 Vw beetle |
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| BFB wrote: |
Not that there might not be a timing issue but this problem isnt timing, this is the typical DCOE issue of needing to roll on the throttle.
That 40 DCOE is massive for a 1600 and when you floor it your losing vacuum signal to the carb which means no vacuum to pull fuel out of the well.
I’ll bet if while you drive it if you roll on the throttle it’ll pick up speed, and if you pump the throttle itll pick up too, right?
But then in higher rpms the mains kick in and it runs pig rich.
Since both carb barrels run into a single plenum you can tune each side of the carb differently, like running a smaller choke on one side than the other or different jetting.
It’ll help if you run smaller chokes to keep vacuum signal higher but then you may also need to change to larger auxiliary venturis to keep the mains from coming in too soon.
Dont go doing stupid stuff like drilling more transition holes or wasting time with emulsion tubes ( yet ). You can try running larger pumps but if that helps at all it wont solve the issue. You need more vacuum in the carb throat and then youll need to lean it out for higher rpms.
Thats a Joblow kit right? You should probably talk to him 1st as im sure hes got them all lined out and will tell you exactly what you need.
If you dont think the 40 is a little big, consider this that i have a 45 on a 2276 running 15lbs of boost. FWIW, i had the shaft split on that 45 so now it has a primary & secondary throat. I have damn near as much in that carb as what some EFI costs. Ha!
Good luck |
Your talking a lot of sence BFB. I'm over carbed with my single 40 IDF it was just weird with 28MM venturis. I went to 26MM everything fell into place tuning was actually low stress and fun It responded to every change just textbook. Its faster with larger venturis but the low end and midrange is killer only giving up a little top end. The drivability a pipedream no flat spots it just works. Im running the hated china 009 its fine the correct carb sizing make all the difference.
If you ran a single SU carb 1 1/2 bore is like 38MM or... blocked off one whole barrel soldered up the main and the acc pump nozzle you would have a much more responsive engine. Can always go back once you have a bigger build.
From the looks of your past threads I get why Your not getting much help. Seems like you been thru a lot of cars/engines N/A, turbos etc none have seen any completion. Just off to the next PROJECT Hmm 
Last edited by DesertSasquatchXploration on Mon Dec 23, 2024 12:42 am; edited 2 times in total |
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advinnie
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2011
Posts: 1405
Location: oxfordshire
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2024 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: Supercharged 1600 Vw beetle |
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| rayjay wrote: |
| advinnie wrote: |
| I have a stock exhaust, where would the best place be to fit the O2 sensor? |
One of the most basic facts of hopping up engines is that the engine is just an air pump. On your air pump you have greatly increased the inlet air flow. This has to be balanced out by increasing the exhaust flow. The stock muffler limits the power output of a totally stock engine so on your engine it's going to cause all sorts of carburation issues.
You need to tell us what your advance curve is not just the max timing.
Revving the engine in neutral is unlikely to get enough air flowing through the carb to get it off the idle circuits. |
I have the following
700rpm 10° BTDC
800 to 1000 rpm 8"°
1200 rpm 12°
1500 rpm 15°
2000 rpm 20°
2500 rpm 25°
3000 rpm 30°
3500 rpm 32°
The vacuum side I add 10° of timing at 37Kpa and have a curve down to zero degrees at 101 Kpa |
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advinnie
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2011
Posts: 1405
Location: oxfordshire
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2024 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: Supercharged 1600 Vw beetle |
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| DesertSasquatchXploration wrote: |
| BFB wrote: |
Not that there might not be a timing issue but this problem isnt timing, this is the typical DCOE issue of needing to roll on the throttle.
That 40 DCOE is massive for a 1600 and when you floor it your losing vacuum signal to the carb which means no vacuum to pull fuel out of the well.
I’ll bet if while you drive it if you roll on the throttle it’ll pick up speed, and if you pump the throttle itll pick up too, right?
But then in higher rpms the mains kick in and it runs pig rich.
Since both carb barrels run into a single plenum you can tune each side of the carb differently, like running a smaller choke on one side than the other or different jetting.
It’ll help if you run smaller chokes to keep vacuum signal higher but then you may also need to change to larger auxiliary venturis to keep the mains from coming in too soon.
Dont go doing stupid stuff like drilling more transition holes or wasting time with emulsion tubes ( yet ). You can try running larger pumps but if that helps at all it wont solve the issue. You need more vacuum in the carb throat and then youll need to lean it out for higher rpms.
Thats a Joblow kit right? You should probably talk to him 1st as im sure hes got them all lined out and will tell you exactly what you need.
If you dont think the 40 is a little big, consider this that i have a 45 on a 2276 running 15lbs of boost. FWIW, i had the shaft split on that 45 so now it has a primary & secondary throat. I have damn near as much in that carb as what some EFI costs. Ha!
Good luck |
Your talking a lot of sence BFB. I'm over carbed with my single 40 IDF it was just weird with 28MM venturis. I went to 26MM everything fell into place tuning was actually low stress and fun It responded to every change just textbook. Its faster with larger venturis but the low end and midrange is killer only giving up a little top end. The drivability a pipedream no flat spots it just works. Im running the hated china 009 its fine the correct carb sizing make all the difference.
If you ran a single SU carb 1 1/2 bore is like 38MM or... blocked off one whole barrel soldered up the main and the acc pump nozzle you would have a much more responsive engine. Can always go back once you have a bigger build. |
So would you say drop down to 28mm or 26mm vents? |
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advinnie
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2011
Posts: 1405
Location: oxfordshire
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| Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2024 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: Supercharged 1600 Vw beetle |
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| BFB wrote: |
Not that there might not be a timing issue but this problem isnt timing, this is the typical DCOE issue of needing to roll on the throttle.
That 40 DCOE is massive for a 1600 and when you floor it your losing vacuum signal to the carb which means no vacuum to pull fuel out of the well.
I’ll bet if while you drive it if you roll on the throttle it’ll pick up speed, and if you pump the throttle itll pick up too, right?
But then in higher rpms the mains kick in and it runs pig rich.
Since both carb barrels run into a single plenum you can tune each side of the carb differently, like running a smaller choke on one side than the other or different jetting.
It’ll help if you run smaller chokes to keep vacuum signal higher but then you may also need to change to larger auxiliary venturis to keep the mains from coming in too soon.
Dont go doing stupid stuff like drilling more transition holes or wasting time with emulsion tubes ( yet ). You can try running larger pumps but if that helps at all it wont solve the issue. You need more vacuum in the carb throat and then youll need to lean it out for higher rpms.
Thats a Joblow kit right? You should probably talk to him 1st as im sure hes got them all lined out and will tell you exactly what you need.
If you dont think the 40 is a little big, consider this that i have a 45 on a 2276 running 15lbs of boost. FWIW, i had the shaft split on that 45 so now it has a primary & secondary throat. I have damn near as much in that carb as what some EFI costs. Ha!
Good luck |
Hi there, yes you are correct. If I roll on the throttle all is good and the engine will accelerate just fine it’s only if I hit the throttle to hard the engine stalls. This kit is a Kompressor Hauls kit but a second hand one and they are not getting back to my email asking for jetting help. So do you think I should drop both vents down to 26mm or just drop one side down to 26mm and leave the other vent at 30mm.?
Any advice on what files and mains to use on the 26mm side if I do a split set up? |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7785
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2024 1:48 am Post subject: Re: Supercharged 1600 Vw beetle |
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| advinnie wrote: |
I have the following
700rpm 10° BTDC
800 to 1000 rpm 8"°
1200 rpm 12°
1500 rpm 15°
2000 rpm 20°
2500 rpm 25°
3000 rpm 30°
3500 rpm 32°
The vacuum side I add 10° of timing at 37Kpa and have a curve down to zero degrees at 101 Kpa |
Not affiliated with your roll on issue, but your timing is off First, get yourself a proper coil instead of that wimpy Bosch thgingy! Next. Correct timing to this for a start:
700rpm 12° BTDC
800 to 1000 rpm 10"°
1200 rpm 12°
1500 rpm 16°
2000 rpm 20°
2800 rpm 28°
3200 rpm 30°
Again for a start you want full vacuum @75 Kpa. Tapering off to zero advance @ 94ish.
Retard timing from 1 degree @ 125 Kpa, and 4 degrees @ 140Kpa
set distributor to ignore map below 1200 rpm.
I agree on the carb. Way too much for a 1600. 2 x 28 mm venturis equals a single 39 mm.
2 x 26 equals a 36,5 mm. Still big, but doable.
As for getting idle and low rpm behavior more predictable jetting wise, you can shut off one side (close the idle mixture) and only let it begin to work when the butterflys allow draw from the progression holes. But you will have to play with that and see which setting works best for you.
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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advinnie
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2011
Posts: 1405
Location: oxfordshire
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| Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2024 2:42 am Post subject: Re: Supercharged 1600 Vw beetle |
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| Thanks for the reply. I will reset the timing now. Will that work just shutting off one mixture screw and running the engine on just one barrel and then the second barrel only coming alive when the progression ports become uncovered? |
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BFB
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014
Posts: 2520
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| Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2024 8:43 am Post subject: Re: Supercharged 1600 Vw beetle |
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| advinnie wrote: |
| BFB wrote: |
Not that there might not be a timing issue but this problem isnt timing, this is the typical DCOE issue of needing to roll on the throttle.
That 40 DCOE is massive for a 1600 and when you floor it your losing vacuum signal to the carb which means no vacuum to pull fuel out of the well.
I’ll bet if while you drive it if you roll on the throttle it’ll pick up speed, and if you pump the throttle itll pick up too, right?
But then in higher rpms the mains kick in and it runs pig rich.
Since both carb barrels run into a single plenum you can tune each side of the carb differently, like running a smaller choke on one side than the other or different jetting.
It’ll help if you run smaller chokes to keep vacuum signal higher but then you may also need to change to larger auxiliary venturis to keep the mains from coming in too soon.
Dont go doing stupid stuff like drilling more transition holes or wasting time with emulsion tubes ( yet ). You can try running larger pumps but if that helps at all it wont solve the issue. You need more vacuum in the carb throat and then youll need to lean it out for higher rpms.
Thats a Joblow kit right? You should probably talk to him 1st as im sure hes got them all lined out and will tell you exactly what you need.
If you dont think the 40 is a little big, consider this that i have a 45 on a 2276 running 15lbs of boost. FWIW, i had the shaft split on that 45 so now it has a primary & secondary throat. I have damn near as much in that carb as what some EFI costs. Ha!
Good luck |
Hi there, yes you are correct. If I roll on the throttle all is good and the engine will accelerate just fine it’s only if I hit the throttle to hard the engine stalls. This kit is a Kompressor Hauls kit but a second hand one and they are not getting back to my email asking for jetting help. So do you think I should drop both vents down to 26mm or just drop one side down to 26mm and leave the other vent at 30mm.?
Any advice on what files and mains to use on the 26mm side if I do a split set up? |
While this may seem like a dick thing to do, im not going to tell you every in out of doing this and exactly what to do. But for good reason, 1 is that i cant , you have to figure out what your engine wants. 2 you need to learn, so get you some Weber books so you understand whats going on in the carb when you make changes. Otherwise you’re just throwing parts and prayers at it hoping the carb gods bless you that day, and trust me they require anger and blood as their sacrifice, not hopes. 3rd, no one gave me this, it took me a couple years to figure this out and get it lined out.. most of the vw ppl are dual carb guys and if its a single then its usually a stock carb. ( which i cant tune to save my soul ).
The webers are amazing with how versatile they are and how you can fine tune them but they can be overwhelming so have patience and set aside about $500 to throw at the carb.
I will give you a couple other pointers though… yes you can idle off of one side but every time I’ve tried that ive needed to run a larger idle jet on that side which then throws the low speed circuit out of whack, so i dont do that.
Dont mess with your accelerator pump or emulsion tubes yet.
DO do what it takes to keep vacuum in the carb, ie smaller / smallest chokes.
Also you can pull the main jet packs out of the carb and run it so see where your idle circuit stops and mains would kick in.
That aughta give you enough to get this, maybe not perfect, but waaaaaay better.
…. You know, with that engine being that small id be curious how itd run if you took one of the velocity stacks off and put a block off plate there and just run off of one throat? Also, i 3D printed a set of modulator rings and used them on some boosted 44 idfs and they increased the vacuum in the carbs so much that it pegged the AFR at 9:1 all through the rpm range. That might be an option for you too. Pm me if you’re interested and I’ll print you off a set, i now have them in varying sizes.
And get a damn AFR gauge whatever you do! Heh heh
_________________
"how am i supposed to torque the rear wheel nut to 250 ft lbs??? " - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
Most experts aren't. |
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advinnie
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2011
Posts: 1405
Location: oxfordshire
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| Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2024 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Supercharged 1600 Vw beetle |
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| BFB wrote: |
| advinnie wrote: |
| BFB wrote: |
Not that there might not be a timing issue but this problem isnt timing, this is the typical DCOE issue of needing to roll on the throttle.
That 40 DCOE is massive for a 1600 and when you floor it your losing vacuum signal to the carb which means no vacuum to pull fuel out of the well.
I’ll bet if while you drive it if you roll on the throttle it’ll pick up speed, and if you pump the throttle itll pick up too, right?
But then in higher rpms the mains kick in and it runs pig rich.
Since both carb barrels run into a single plenum you can tune each side of the carb differently, like running a smaller choke on one side than the other or different jetting.
It’ll help if you run smaller chokes to keep vacuum signal higher but then you may also need to change to larger auxiliary venturis to keep the mains from coming in too soon.
Dont go doing stupid stuff like drilling more transition holes or wasting time with emulsion tubes ( yet ). You can try running larger pumps but if that helps at all it wont solve the issue. You need more vacuum in the carb throat and then youll need to lean it out for higher rpms.
Thats a Joblow kit right? You should probably talk to him 1st as im sure hes got them all lined out and will tell you exactly what you need.
If you dont think the 40 is a little big, consider this that i have a 45 on a 2276 running 15lbs of boost. FWIW, i had the shaft split on that 45 so now it has a primary & secondary throat. I have damn near as much in that carb as what some EFI costs. Ha!
Good luck |
Hi there, yes you are correct. If I roll on the throttle all is good and the engine will accelerate just fine it’s only if I hit the throttle to hard the engine stalls. This kit is a Kompressor Hauls kit but a second hand one and they are not getting back to my email asking for jetting help. So do you think I should drop both vents down to 26mm or just drop one side down to 26mm and leave the other vent at 30mm.?
Any advice on what files and mains to use on the 26mm side if I do a split set up? |
While this may seem like a dick thing to do, im not going to tell you every in out of doing this and exactly what to do. But for good reason, 1 is that i cant , you have to figure out what your engine wants. 2 you need to learn, so get you some Weber books so you understand whats going on in the carb when you make changes. Otherwise you’re just throwing parts and prayers at it hoping the carb gods bless you that day, and trust me they require anger and blood as their sacrifice, not hopes. 3rd, no one gave me this, it took me a couple years to figure this out and get it lined out.. most of the vw ppl are dual carb guys and if its a single then its usually a stock carb. ( which i cant tune to save my soul ).
The webers are amazing with how versatile they are and how you can fine tune them but they can be overwhelming so have patience and set aside about $500 to throw at the carb.
I will give you a couple other pointers though… yes you can idle off of one side but every time I’ve tried that ive needed to run a larger idle jet on that side which then throws the low speed circuit out of whack, so i dont do that.
Dont mess with your accelerator pump or emulsion tubes yet.
DO do what it takes to keep vacuum in the carb, ie smaller / smallest chokes.
Also you can pull the main jet packs out of the carb and run it so see where your idle circuit stops and mains would kick in.
That aughta give you enough to get this, maybe not perfect, but waaaaaay better.
…. You know, with that engine being that small id be curious how itd run if you took one of the velocity stacks off and put a block off plate there and just run off of one throat? Also, i 3D printed a set of modulator rings and used them on some boosted 44 idfs and they increased the vacuum in the carbs so much that it pegged the AFR at 9:1 all through the rpm range. That might be an option for you too. Pm me if you’re interested and I’ll print you off a set, i now have them in varying sizes.
And get a damn AFR gauge whatever you do! Heh heh |
Hi mate. I do totally understand what you are saying, it better to understand the system and to learn how it works than just being told what to do. That is some good advice. I’m looking at ARF kits but not to sure where to weld the O2 sensor bung in the exhaust.
modulator rings ? Are these why I call restrictors that have a small opening than the carb?
I’m in the UK, Oxfordshire where are you? |
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chrisflstf
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 3978
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2024 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Supercharged 1600 Vw beetle |
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| Is the first pic a running motor pic? You dont have the tabs holding the stacks in place, which in turn keep the aux venturis located. Id get some air filters also. Those screens dont filter well |
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advinnie
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2011
Posts: 1405
Location: oxfordshire
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| Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2024 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Supercharged 1600 Vw beetle |
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| The wire mess filters are just a temporary thing. |
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Erik G
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13533
Location: Tejas!
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advinnie
Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2011
Posts: 1405
Location: oxfordshire
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| Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2024 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: Supercharged 1600 Vw beetle |
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| Erik G wrote: |
| can we see the stock exhaust? At the very lest the heat risers are hacked off, which is weird to do to stock mufflers. |
Hi there the heat risers are just blocked off. |
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