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California Smog Exemption Bill 712 ~ Leno's Law
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Red Ryder
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2025 4:29 pm    Post subject: Re: California Smog Exemption Bill 712 Reply with quote

After moving from California to Washington last year, we were delighted to find our new state no longer required smog tests. (No state income tax either!).
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2025 1:18 am    Post subject: Re: California Smog Exemption Bill 712 Reply with quote

Dailymoto wrote:
Abscate wrote:
MsTaboo wrote:
I think if they're gonna still smog check (and I understand why in certain areas) they should require the vehicle to meet the numbers when it was made, regardless of what kind of engine it currently has.
Makes no sense at all to penalize a 1990 VW for having a 2003 engine if it's putting out the same (or better) emissions just because it's an engine conversion.That newer engine is most likely getting better milage and not dripping oil all over (or stuck on the side of the road broke down).

On the other hand it's crazy that you can have 1964 Mustang with a 800 hp engine with no emission equipment and be exempt from any smog check just because it's older. Or those off-road only vehicles doing the same thing; just because it's off-road doesn't mean it's not polluting!


It’s antisensical as being able to re-engine an old car is the greenest thing on the planet. Getting another decade out of a large manufactured item is a huge reduction in footprint from a new car, either ICE or EV


I used to think this was the case as well with EVs, but after reading from the EPA, Department of Energy, MIT, etc, the evidence consistently shows that the lifetime carbon emissions of an average EV is significantly less than an average ICE vehicle even when taking manufacturing into account.

I definitely agree about the old ice for new ice swap. Here in Cali, I would have loved a different newer motor than what’s offered out here.

The dream would be an EV conversion, but after crunching the weight, range, and charging speed capabilities, not sure if that’ll ever happen for our household. Maybe 10-15yr if ever?


It’s not an ICE vs EV thing. Extending the life of anything large is good for the planet. I’ve got 4 1999s in my fleet which are now arguably approaching 3x the average lifecycle of an ICE and still get 25 mpg and pass smog. Pocketbook impact is nice, too.

CARB authority comes from an act of Congress , not the President, so the Executive cannot “ overturn “ this authority in a democracy.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2025 8:27 am    Post subject: Re: California Smog Exemption Bill 712 Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:

CARB authority comes from an act of Congress , not the President, so the Executive cannot “ overturn “ this authority in a democracy.


"One of CARB's responsibilities is to define vehicle emissions standards. California is the only state permitted to issue emissions standards under the federal Clean Air Act, subject to a waiver from the United States Environmental Protection Agency. Other states may choose to follow CARB or the federal vehicle emission standards, but may not set their own."
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Dailymoto
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2025 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: California Smog Exemption Bill 712 ~ Leno's Law Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
Dailymoto wrote:
Abscate wrote:
MsTaboo wrote:
I think if they're gonna still smog check (and I understand why in certain areas) they should require the vehicle to meet the numbers when it was made, regardless of what kind of engine it currently has.
Makes no sense at all to penalize a 1990 VW for having a 2003 engine if it's putting out the same (or better) emissions just because it's an engine conversion.That newer engine is most likely getting better milage and not dripping oil all over (or stuck on the side of the road broke down).

On the other hand it's crazy that you can have 1964 Mustang with a 800 hp engine with no emission equipment and be exempt from any smog check just because it's older. Or those off-road only vehicles doing the same thing; just because it's off-road doesn't mean it's not polluting!


It’s antisensical as being able to re-engine an old car is the greenest thing on the planet. Getting another decade out of a large manufactured item is a huge reduction in footprint from a new car, either ICE or EV


I used to think this was the case as well with EVs, but after reading from the EPA, Department of Energy, MIT, etc, the evidence consistently shows that the lifetime carbon emissions of an average EV is significantly less than an average ICE vehicle even when taking manufacturing into account.

I definitely agree about the old ice for new ice swap. Here in Cali, I would have loved a different newer motor than what’s offered out here.

The dream would be an EV conversion, but after crunching the weight, range, and charging speed capabilities, not sure if that’ll ever happen for our household. Maybe 10-15yr if ever?


It’s not an ICE vs EV thing. Extending the life of anything large is good for the planet. I’ve got 4 1999s in my fleet which are now arguably approaching 3x the average lifecycle of an ICE and still get 25 mpg and pass smog. Pocketbook impact is nice, too.

CARB authority comes from an act of Congress , not the President, so the Executive cannot “ overturn “ this authority in a democracy.


I just listed reputable sources backing up my statement, but you disagree and give an anecdote. Please read the data.

We can generally agree that extending the life of something is usually good for the environment, but if it can be replaced by something more efficient and less polluting, then over the life span of the new object, it will overcome its manufacturing carbon footprint and be better for the environment.

Here’s another example. I run two stroke Hodakas and Greeves motorcycles originally built for 12:1 and 20:1 oil ratios. Just because they’re already manufactured doesn’t mean that they will always be the more eco friendly choice than a new four stroke husqvarna. There comes a point that the Husky will, over its lifespan, have a smaller carbon footprint. It’s an indisputable fact.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2025 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: California Smog Exemption Bill 712 ~ Leno's Law Reply with quote

You’re not reading my statement, or not comprehending it, because we aren’t in disagreement.

Extending the life of any large manufactured item is good for the environment.

How’s that ?
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Dailymoto
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2025 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: California Smog Exemption Bill 712 ~ Leno's Law Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
You’re not reading my statement, or not comprehending it, because we aren’t in disagreement.

Extending the life of any large manufactured item is good for the environment.

How’s that ?


I misunderstood it. I read it as you stating that replacing an ICE with an EV would not be better because the EV would require additional manufacturing of an new vehicle and thus not be able to catch up on reducing the carbon footprint. My bad.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2025 1:23 am    Post subject: Re: California Smog Exemption Bill 712 ~ Leno's Law Reply with quote

looks like it passed the Senate Transportation Committee with 12-2 vote

April 21 it goes to the Senate Appropriations Committee Hearing

would be very cool if this passes
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2025 3:57 pm    Post subject: Re: California Smog Exemption Bill 712 ~ Leno's Law Reply with quote

metahacker wrote:
looks like it passed the Senate Transportation Committee with 12-2 vote

April 21 it goes to the Senate Appropriations Committee Hearing

would be very cool if this passes


The Appropriation Committee vote has been postponed to April 28, so as of today, we still have a week to give them out input

The committee contacts are on the pdf below...

https://sapro.senate.ca.gov/system/files/2025-02/2025-committee-member-staff-2-27-25.pdf

Give them a call, let you voice be heard.
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2025 1:03 am    Post subject: Re: California Smog Exemption Bill 712 ~ Leno's Law Reply with quote

It has passed appropriation committee with amendments- historical plates and collector car insurance required. Collector insurance requires the vehicle to be garaged, historical vehicle plates limit use.
I recently got tags for my car with HV plates and the DMV had a hard time figuring out how to even enter it into the system. That plate system isn't well understood.
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2025 9:55 am    Post subject: Re: California Smog Exemption Bill 712 ~ Leno's Law Reply with quote

syncrodoka wrote:
It has passed appropriation committee with amendments- historical plates and collector car insurance required. Collector insurance requires the vehicle to be garaged, historical vehicle plates limit use.
I recently got tags for my car with HV plates and the DMV had a hard time figuring out how to even enter it into the system. That plate system isn't well understood.
Requiring a Vanagon to be garaged is a bit OTT - assuming one could get the plates etc.
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2025 11:53 am    Post subject: Re: California Smog Exemption Bill 712 ~ Leno's Law Reply with quote

There is probably an assumption of wealth and that everyone that can afford a collectable/classic has a garage. I don't think they had vanagon daily drivers in mind. Its a step in the right direction.
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zerotofifty
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2025 3:24 pm    Post subject: Re: California Smog Exemption Bill 712 ~ Leno's Law Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
There is probably an assumption of wealth and that everyone that can afford a collectable/classic has a garage. I don't think they had vanagon daily drivers in mind. Its a step in the right direction.


The garage requirement is a huge problem. Many do not have a garage, and a garage or lack there of has nothing to do with the smog produced by a vehicle. The dam politicians are simply trying to fuck us over again.
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2025 4:20 pm    Post subject: Re: California Smog Exemption Bill 712 Reply with quote

zerotofifty wrote:
By the way, the nation is a republic.

If we can keep it.[/Ben Franklin]

Max
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2025 9:48 am    Post subject: Re: California Smog Exemption Bill 712 ~ Leno's Law Reply with quote

Unfortunately this became a political argument. I don't have a dog in that fight.
I'm in California and in the past I ran a repair shop. We got a newsletter from the Bureau of Auto Repair which administers the Smog Check Program here. With that info, and some following of the news, it was clear (even stated outright as few times) that one of the goals of the Smog Check was/is to 'get old polluting vehicles off the roads'. That was the idea of "Cash for Clunkers".
Not too surprising, the auto dealers were supportive of this.
Several times, in the last few decades, a bill was submitted in the California legislature to make it impossible to register a vehicle that was over 10 years old. Soon those bills were withdrawn, as it was pointed out that the "slaves" would be unable to get to work.
Also in California, just about any motor can be installed in a vehicle, however ALL the emission related equipment from the donor vehicle needs to be there and functioning. Plus there's a process to go through with a State "referee" which can be time consuming and costly. The notion is that the OE maker designed and tested the system to comply with the requirements. Someone that uses part of the system(s) cannot guarantee that once on the road the vehicle will stay "clean".
Yes there are certainly issues with newer vehicles that emit more than allowed, however that has little to do with 'ancient' VWs.
There's a little known history about the emissions testing in California and other states.
And as has been mentioned, parts of California got cleaner air over the decades, not so much because of reduced emissions from vehicles (which helps) but because of the closure of many industrial activities. In the SoCal area, if we go back to the 1950s, there were at least 4 steel plants, several cement companies, at least one tire maker, and other places that put "smog" into the air. Those are all gone (along with the jobs).
BTW, I'd like to have an EV if someone would put up the $30K difference to a gasoline vehicle.
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2025 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: California Smog Exemption Bill 712 ~ Leno's Law Reply with quote

zerotofifty wrote:
MarkWard wrote:
There is probably an assumption of wealth and that everyone that can afford a collectable/classic has a garage. I don't think they had vanagon daily drivers in mind. Its a step in the right direction.


The garage requirement is a huge problem. Many do not have a garage, and a garage or lack there of has nothing to do with the smog produced by a vehicle. The dam politicians are simply trying to fuck us over again.


It is the insurance that requires the vehicle to be garaged and not the state, at least that is my understanding.

For what it's worth, my newest vehicle is over 35 years old at this point in time, so all I drive are collectors vehicles. However living in Oregon, my oldest driver a 1972 Dodge will not be considered an antique until 2044, seventy-two years after it was built, while my '91 vanagon will not be an antique until 2082 when my grand kids (if I actually had any) will be in their dotage assuming that the world still exists.

I can understand the garaging requirement as I worry about my old classics being stolen. I have a non driving '1928 Model AA that had a first class restoration about 20 years ago and gets a lot of oohs and aahs, that is presently more of a lawn ornament that I worry may not be there some morning, while I also own a 1972 Land Cruiser, that I now keep out of sight of the road because people would wade the creek to look at it when it sat in the back forty.
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2025 9:08 pm    Post subject: Re: California Smog Exemption Bill 712 ~ Leno's Law Reply with quote

The state should allow the smog test exemption without the need for collector insurance ( which requires a garage) nor with the need for collector plates. I want to be able to keep my original plates.
The insurance, garaging, plate have zero effect on smog. Dam the state to Hell
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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2025 3:14 am    Post subject: Re: California Smog Exemption Bill 712 ~ Leno's Law Reply with quote

I wonder if this might create a new collector vehicle insurance product with looser restrictions on garaging? Premiums would be higher of course, but if the demand is there, insurance companies could respond
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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2025 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: California Smog Exemption Bill 712 ~ Leno's Law Reply with quote

The collector restriction seems to have been removed as the bill is currently amended. So all cars, 35 years and older are included in smog test, biennially, and at transfer exemption.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB712

watching it unfold...
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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2025 2:22 pm    Post subject: Re: California Smog Exemption Bill 712 ~ Leno's Law Reply with quote

crz4vanagon wrote:
The collector restriction seems to have been removed as the bill is currently amended. So all cars, 35 years and older are included in smog test, biennially, and at transfer exemption.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260SB712

watching it unfold...

Looks like the bill is simplifying current CA law by making any car that's 35 years or older a classic car. That also means dropping the classic car insurance requirement. Great move!

"A collector motor vehicle, as defined in Section 259 of the Vehicle Code, if the motor vehicle meets all of the following criteria: that is at least 35 model years old."
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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2025 4:08 pm    Post subject: Re: California Smog Exemption Bill 712 ~ Leno's Law Reply with quote

Maybe they could add a provision so one could fuel an classic car with ethanol free fuel for the same price as regular fuel. I know I used to be very proud of how my older vehicles ran, and when I voluntarily had them smogged they would do very well. Today with ethanol laced fuel the exhaust can be gagging and they can spit and sputter on a hot restart, and no way would I have them smogged. They also get about 20% worse gas mileage than they used to.
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