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Jason0115
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2021
Posts: 113
Location: New Jersey
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 Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
How about a shot that shows the cords in the coupler well. Maybe Lares is using some other belting than what they had been using?
I have a fairly new coupling on the bus and a new spare, both of which carry the VW logo and seem to be A-1, but if I were looking for a replacement I might get the hole measurement that VW uses and hit a wrecking yard with a bunch of oldies but goodies and see if I could find a coupler with the same hole spacing that I could potentially salvage the rubber disc from. |
Here is a comparison of both couplers before the install:
Link
https://youtu.be/hBeplW5HhI4
You can see the cords in the lares coupler. Holes lined up perfectly. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52119
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| Jason0115 wrote: |
You can see the cords in the lares coupler. Holes lined up perfectly. |
Interesting, it certainly looks like the Lares is sufficiently well enforced.
I have long wondered how the steering column could be improved so that something more than the coupling prevented the shaft from lifting. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23021
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| Jason0115 wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
How about a shot that shows the cords in the coupler well. Maybe Lares is using some other belting than what they had been using?
I have a fairly new coupling on the bus and a new spare, both of which carry the VW logo and seem to be A-1, but if I were looking for a replacement I might get the hole measurement that VW uses and hit a wrecking yard with a bunch of oldies but goodies and see if I could find a coupler with the same hole spacing that I could potentially salvage the rubber disc from. |
Here is a comparison of both couplers before the install:
Link
https://youtu.be/hBeplW5HhI4
You can see the cords in the lares coupler. Holes lined up perfectly. |
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
That is too many layers of cords with too little rubber in between.
The cords in rubber sheets limit the lateral/radial flex....meaning the twisting force/movement. They also make for higher tear resistant.
But....those cords do not add stiffness in the axial direction. Though the rubber might be the correct durometer....excessive amounts of cord removes rubber volume so it will act like a lower durometer rubber in the axial direction. Ray |
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Jason0115
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2021
Posts: 113
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 10:15 am Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
That is too many layers of cords with too little rubber in between.
The cords in rubber sheets limit the lateral/radial flex....meaning the twisting force/movement. They also make for higher tear resistant.
But....those cords do not add stiffness in the axial direction. Though the rubber might be the correct durometer....excessive amounts of cord removes rubber volume so it will act like a lower durometer rubber in the axial direction. Ray |
Interesting...are you saying this would be a fault of the coupler then? I wonder if anyone else had this problem when using the lares coupler. I have only seen good feedback from that piece. I don't have a OEM coupler to compare the stiffness to this one.
Another thing to consider is the old coupler as you can see in the video is warped in the exact way the new coupler looks like when I pull up on the steering wheel. That leads me to believe there has to be something else in play. I have had problems in the past of the gap between the steering wheel and column becoming too big over time that the turn signal cancel switch would not engage. I thought it was due to the turn signal column sliding down but now I believe it was actually the steering wheel/rod shifting. Just a possibility. |
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Jason0115
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2021
Posts: 113
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| Jason0115 wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
That is too many layers of cords with too little rubber in between.
The cords in rubber sheets limit the lateral/radial flex....meaning the twisting force/movement. They also make for higher tear resistant.
But....those cords do not add stiffness in the axial direction. Though the rubber might be the correct durometer....excessive amounts of cord removes rubber volume so it will act like a lower durometer rubber in the axial direction. Ray |
Interesting...are you saying this would be a fault of the coupler then? I wonder if anyone else had this problem when using the lares coupler. I have only seen good feedback from that piece. I don't have a new OEM coupler to compare the stiffness to this one.
Another thing to consider is the old coupler as you can see in the video is warped in the exact way the new coupler looks like when I pull up on the steering wheel. That leads me to believe there has to be something else in play. I have had problems in the past of the gap between the steering wheel and column becoming too big over time that the turn signal cancel switch would not engage. I thought it was due to the turn signal column sliding down but now I believe it was actually the steering wheel/rod shifting. Just a possibility. |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 13419
Location: West Coast, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 10:48 am Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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People who drive buses daily, work on buses professionally, and restore buses for a living all prefer the Lares couplers. The common thread here is that they’ve actually used them. I avoid taking advice from people who don’t do the work.
Robbie
_________________
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www.airschooled.com
https://www.patreon.com/airschooled |
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Jason0115
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2021
Posts: 113
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 11:06 am Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| airschooled wrote: |
People who drive buses daily, work on buses professionally, and restore buses for a living all prefer the Lares couplers. The common thread here is that they’ve actually used them. I avoid taking advice from people who don’t do the work.
Robbie |
That was the consensus I got on the couplers. It seems fine to me. I just cant figure out what is causing the up and down movement. Is there anything else you know of that can limit the movement? |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 13419
Location: West Coast, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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Didn’t see you last page video. That looks like the steering yoke clamp is not tight. If the wheel sprang back down, ok it could be the coupler. But since it slides begrudgingly both ways, look for that clamp bolt, 13mm, on top of the steering box. It should have an aggressive lock nut or locking tab depending on year.
Item #1 in your video is not the coupler’s fault. Check your tire pressure and move on.
_________________
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www.airschooled.com
https://www.patreon.com/airschooled |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23021
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| airschooled wrote: |
Didn’t see you last page video. That looks like the steering yoke clamp is not tight. If the wheel sprang back down, ok it could be the coupler. But since it slides begrudgingly both ways, look for that clamp bolt, 13mm, on top of the steering box. It should have an aggressive lock nut or locking tab depending on year.
Item #1 in your video is not the coupler’s fault. Check your tire pressure and move on. |
Possible! You can see that pinch bolt in his video and compare relative to the steering box. It looks like there "could" be some movement there but its hard to tell as there is some radial jostling.
However, what I DO see is that the axial flex of the coupler... IS...just about the same as the gap he is seeing between the steering wheel and column tube.
While there may be SOME yoke movement visible in the video by comparing the pinch bolt to the steering box starting at about the 36 second mark.....its not the 3/8" of an inch that we definately see in the coupler.
To answer the OP's query to me a couple of posts back...no I am not blaming the coupler (yet). The issue I ask about is why the steering column has that much axial play rehardless of what the coupling disk is doing.
The earlier buses (pre-74-ish?) had a spring underneath the steering wheel that kept tension on the steering wheel. However, not sure about 1975.
As for "everyone swears by Lares".....Ok....I have been digging through thsi thread since it started in 2010. There has been no mention of "Lares" until about February of 2022. That was about 10 pages ago,
Since that time....good results with Lares...when you can get them. Still not perfect dimensions but good enough (back about 9 pages ago).
Too many people asking why anyone should be looking for any other solution when only over the past three years has anyone found a solution that has any quality.
Being that I work with a lot of rubber product and rubber laminate manufacturing...and there are huge issues with quality and spec of manufacturing, I am always questioning products. Always looking for a second source or better source.
As you note...the yoke may be loose. What next if its not?
Ray |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52119
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| Jason0115 wrote: |
| airschooled wrote: |
People who drive buses daily, work on buses professionally, and restore buses for a living all prefer the Lares couplers. The common thread here is that they’ve actually used them. I avoid taking advice from people who don’t do the work.
Robbie |
That was the consensus I got on the couplers. It seems fine to me. I just cant figure out what is causing the up and down movement. Is there anything else you know of that can limit the movement? |
You obviously have the wrong driving style, you should always lean heavily on the steering wheel to prevent this.  |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23021
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Jason0115 wrote: |
| airschooled wrote: |
People who drive buses daily, work on buses professionally, and restore buses for a living all prefer the Lares couplers. The common thread here is that they’ve actually used them. I avoid taking advice from people who don’t do the work.
Robbie |
That was the consensus I got on the couplers. It seems fine to me. I just cant figure out what is causing the up and down movement. Is there anything else you know of that can limit the movement? |
You obviously have the wrong driving style, you should always lean heavily on the steering wheel to prevent this. |
Looking at the diagram of the column and looking at his video where the housing stays stationary but the steering wheel pulls in and out.....one has to ask where the axial movement is coming from.
The suggestion that it is coming from the yoke on the steering box splines seems (from the exploded diagram) to be the most likely cause....yet I just could not see that amount or motion coming from the yoke and it's pinch bolt. Yet I could see a lot of flex from the coupler.
A combination of both?
And, if memory serves, that pinch bolt resides in a groove across the splines steering box shaft so even if it loose.....it should never be able to move more than about 1/16" max.
Question: the bus steering column shaft at a glance appears to be a solid two bolt flange on the steering column shaft. But....is it actually pressed in with splines like a type 1, 3 or type 181 flange?
Like this:
https://www2.cip1.com/VWC-311-415-413-SET/?gad_sou...dgEALw_wcB
If so, if it is pressed into the end of the steering shaft....perhaps it's the steering shaft end that is slipping in and out and not the steering box clamp bolt flange. Ray |
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dodger tom 
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2013
Posts: 1856
Location: Central Coast, CA, but we're all still Ukrainian and Californian
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Jason0115 wrote: |
| airschooled wrote: |
People who drive buses daily, work on buses professionally, and restore buses for a living all prefer the Lares couplers. The common thread here is that they’ve actually used them. I avoid taking advice from people who don’t do the work.
Robbie |
That was the consensus I got on the couplers. It seems fine to me. I just cant figure out what is causing the up and down movement. Is there anything else you know of that can limit the movement? |
You obviously have the wrong driving style, you should always lean heavily on the steering wheel to prevent this. |
it also helps to prevent popping wheelies.
_________________
1978 Champaign Edition 2 Westfalia
Would never find the time to keep up another classic air-cooled. |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42126
Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Jason0115 wrote: |
| airschooled wrote: |
People who drive buses daily, work on buses professionally, and restore buses for a living all prefer the Lares couplers. The common thread here is that they’ve actually used them. I avoid taking advice from people who don’t do the work.
Robbie |
That was the consensus I got on the couplers. It seems fine to me. I just cant figure out what is causing the up and down movement. Is there anything else you know of that can limit the movement? |
You obviously have the wrong driving style, you should always lean heavily on the steering wheel to prevent this. |
he was going up hill. Its the rhythm thing, pull steering wheel to rock forward.
_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 13419
Location: West Coast, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Jason0115 wrote: |
| airschooled wrote: |
People who drive buses daily, work on buses professionally, and restore buses for a living all prefer the Lares couplers. The common thread here is that they’ve actually used them. I avoid taking advice from people who don’t do the work.
Robbie |
That was the consensus I got on the couplers. It seems fine to me. I just cant figure out what is causing the up and down movement. Is there anything else you know of that can limit the movement? |
You obviously have the wrong driving style, you should always lean heavily on the steering wheel to prevent this. |
he was going up hill. Its the rhythm thing, pull steering wheel to rock forward. |
The pope might be dead but the rhythm method has always had some truth behind it.
_________________
One-on-one tech help for your vintage Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com
https://www.patreon.com/airschooled |
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Jason0115
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2021
Posts: 113
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2025 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Looking at the diagram of the column and looking at his video where the housing stays stationary but the steering wheel pulls in and out.....one has to ask where the axial movement is coming from.
The suggestion that it is coming from the yoke on the steering box splines seems (from the exploded diagram) to be the most likely cause....yet I just could not see that amount or motion coming from the yoke and it's pinch bolt. Yet I could see a lot of flex from the coupler.
A combination of both?
And, if memory serves, that pinch bolt resides in a groove across the splines steering box shaft so even if it loose.....it should never be able to move more than about 1/16" max.
Question: the bus steering column shaft at a glance appears to be a solid two bolt flange on the steering column shaft. But....is it actually pressed in with splines like a type 1, 3 or type 181 flange?
If so, if it is pressed into the end of the steering shaft....perhaps it's the steering shaft end that is slipping in and out and not the steering box clamp bolt flange. Ray |
That is correct - the pinch bolt does reside in a groove across the splines that does not allow much vertical movement at all (about 1/16" like you mentioned). I did double check the pinch bolt was tight and the yoke did not move one bit when performing this test.
To answer your question - the steering column shaft is the solid two bolt flange not the pressed in type.
And yes 1975 busses have the spring under the steering wheel. See below:
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42126
Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2025 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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these 35 pages remind me of the children's story
Once upon a time, there was a little girl named Goldilocks. She went for a walk in the forest. Pretty soon, she came upon a house. She knocked and, when no one answered, she walked right in. At the table in the kitchen, there were three bowls of porridge. Goldilocks was hungry. She tasted the porridge from the first bowl. “This porridge is too hot!” she exclaimed. So, she tasted the porridge from the second bowl. “This porridge is too cold,” she said So, she tasted the last bowl of porridge. “Ahhh, this porridge is just right,” she said happily and she ate it all up. After she’d eaten the three bears’ breakfasts she decided she was feeling a little tired. So, she walked into the living room where she saw three chairs. Goldilocks sat in the first chair to rest her feet. “This chair is too big!” she exclaimed. So she sat in the second chair. “This chair is too big, too!” she whined. So she tried the last and smallest chair. “Ahhh, this chair is just right,” she sighed. But just as she settled down into the chair to rest, it broke into pieces! Goldilocks was very tired by this time, so she went upstairs to the bedroom. She lay down in the first bed, but it was too hard. Then she lay in the second bed, but it was too soft. Then she lay down in the third bed and it was just right. Goldilocks fell asleep.
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"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin |
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Jason0115
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2021
Posts: 113
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2025 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| dodger tom wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Jason0115 wrote: |
| airschooled wrote: |
People who drive buses daily, work on buses professionally, and restore buses for a living all prefer the Lares couplers. The common thread here is that they’ve actually used them. I avoid taking advice from people who don’t do the work.
Robbie |
That was the consensus I got on the couplers. It seems fine to me. I just cant figure out what is causing the up and down movement. Is there anything else you know of that can limit the movement? |
You obviously have the wrong driving style, you should always lean heavily on the steering wheel to prevent this. |
it also helps to prevent popping wheelies. |
I like this way of thinking...  |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42126
Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2025 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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how much smaller are the bug / vanagon ones 111-415-417 / 251-419-417B ?
_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52119
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2025 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| how much smaller are the bug / vanagon ones 111-415-417 / 251-419-417B ? |
20 or 30% smaller in diameter. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23021
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2025 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| Jason0115 wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Looking at the diagram of the column and looking at his video where the housing stays stationary but the steering wheel pulls in and out.....one has to ask where the axial movement is coming from.
The suggestion that it is coming from the yoke on the steering box splines seems (from the exploded diagram) to be the most likely cause....yet I just could not see that amount or motion coming from the yoke and it's pinch bolt. Yet I could see a lot of flex from the coupler.
A combination of both?
And, if memory serves, that pinch bolt resides in a groove across the splines steering box shaft so even if it loose.....it should never be able to move more than about 1/16" max.
Question: the bus steering column shaft at a glance appears to be a solid two bolt flange on the steering column shaft. But....is it actually pressed in with splines like a type 1, 3 or type 181 flange?
If so, if it is pressed into the end of the steering shaft....perhaps it's the steering shaft end that is slipping in and out and not the steering box clamp bolt flange. Ray |
That is correct - the pinch bolt does reside in a groove across the splines that does not allow much vertical movement at all (about 1/16" like you mentioned). I did double check the pinch bolt was tight and the yoke did not move one bit when performing this test.
To answer your question - the steering column shaft is the solid two bolt flange not the pressed in type.
And yes 1975 busses have the spring under the steering wheel. See below:
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Ok...unless there is something missing on your column that I just do not know about or cannot see in the diagram....I would suggest...purely speculation....but..aren't there two different versions of column, with one having a flat shim/washer on top of that spring...the spring compressed...and a snap ring holding in in the compressed position?
That would keep the steering shaft partly tensioned upward allowing thesteering wheel to "probably" tighten down farther with its washer and nut.
Is it possible you have the wrong column, wheel or a mix of parts?
Check this thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...9987c99274
Ray |
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