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lateral
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2012
Posts: 94
Location: Sydney Australia
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 Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 1:17 am Post subject: Re: Clutch Centring tool |
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Hi Ray
I’ve been thinking about the need to move the mainshaft forward before moving the engine to the rear.
If I don’t move the transmission mainshaft forward, what’s going to happen?
Won’t I still have enough room to move the engine rear wood?
Am I missing something?
Cheers
Greg |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23004
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Clutch Centring tool |
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| lateral wrote: |
Hi Ray
I’ve been thinking about the need to move the mainshaft forward before moving the engine to the rear.
If I don’t move the transmission mainshaft forward, what’s going to happen?
Won’t I still have enough room to move the engine rear wood?
Am I missing something?
Cheers
Greg |
Yes.....you can " MAKE" enough room on the rear side of the engine to pull the engine far enough back......but the only way to do so is to tilt the transmission downward toward the rear. This puts the linkage in a bind so you have to disconnect that and it puts the tailcone bushing in a bind which is risky at its age and they do not grow on trees.
Lastly, you have very little angle allowance in tilting the transmission before the tailcone that sticks through the suspension cross member comes up hard against the bore that it's in which risks cracking it.
Here is the gist. Without lowering anything....in order to pull the engine rearward enough to pull the mainshaft all the way out of the pilot bushing and out of the disc and clear the pressure plate.....even with the coil removed....your fan shroud will bump up against the rear body valance before you are successful.
So to continue moving rearward and clear that valance, the whole drivetrain package will need to drop down about 2". In order to do that with the transmission still mounted in its place to the rear suspension beam.....it WILL put the tail cone and shift rod hard up against the bore it's in in the suspension beam.
And then you have all of the shaking around of the engine you will need to do to seperate the engine from the transmission. And unless your engine is perfectly balanced and held at the perfect angle.....this is where you can easily crack the tailcone of the transmission.
If instead......you pull the mainshaft....nothing on the transmission needs to be angled down. You pull the engine rearward the 2" that you have....making sure that the transmission does not slide rearward with it.....and the engine just drops straight down.
Yes, you can do it without removing the mainshaft.....but it's dirt simple removing the mainshaft. It was designed this way just to do this. It literally takes about 1 minute to pull the mainshaft once you have the plate off and the plug in the transmission tailbone unscrewed.
I would never do it any other way after discovering this feature. Ray |
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lateral
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2012
Posts: 94
Location: Sydney Australia
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| Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch Centring tool |
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Thanks again for this detailed explanation.
Now I full understand and the main shaft removal method is the way I will be proceeding.
I think I kept thinking about how easy removing an engine is in a Type 3 setup.
Thanks again Ray.
I’m still gathering parts for the engine rebuild etc.
Cheers
Greg |
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oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 14553
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2024 5:04 am Post subject: Re: Clutch Centring tool |
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Wow! Thanks for this! There is a transaxle removal and repair on my '70 type 4 squareback in the not too distant future. Following...
_________________
Our cars get old, we get old but driving an old VW never gets old! |
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lateral
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2012
Posts: 94
Location: Sydney Australia
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| Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2024 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch Centring tool |
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Hi Ray,
I'm going to be pulling the engine sometime over the next 2 weeks or so.
I will be leaving the gearbox in the car and only removing the engine.
I went back to double check the method that I am going to use and have posted a few additional photos.
I discovered that there are 2 large holes next to the rear bump stops that will accept the tie down straps "hooks" and after a quick trial fit and test it looks like it will work fine to support the gearbox once the engine is removed using the pneumatic table lift.
Do you see any problems with using these 2 holes?
Cheers
Greg
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23004
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2024 9:46 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch Centring tool |
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Should be no problem. The gearbox is not really that heavy. Looking good!
Ray |
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lateral
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2012
Posts: 94
Location: Sydney Australia
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| Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2024 9:48 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch Centring tool |
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Thanks Ray
I’ll keep you posted.
Cheers
Greg |
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lateral
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2012
Posts: 94
Location: Sydney Australia
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2025 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch Centring tool |
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Hi Ray,
Sorry for the long time before following up.
I've been busy collecting the various new parts for the upcoming rebuild of the Type 4 engine plus working on a few of my other cars.
Just to remind you, the original engine was replaced with an 1800cc engine.
I have a question that I would like to have answered before I embark on this project:
1. Crankshaft needle bearing - it is my intention to reuse the existing crankshaft, flywheel, clutch and pressure plate. Am I correct in that whilst the size of the input shaft spline in a Type 4 gearbox is narrower than other VW input shafts (Type 1,2), the 'tip" of the input shaft is the same and the correct Crankshaft Needle Bearing (Spigot bearing) is part # 111 105 313A. Meaning that should I want to install the new engine into a Type 2 Kombi, then the only thing that needs to be changed is the clutch plate?
The reason for this question is that we will be wanting to fit the newly refurbished engine to a Type 1 "chassis" so that we can dyno tune it before installation back into the 411.
Thanks again for any help you can provide Ray.
Cheers
Greg |
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wagen19
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 543
Location: germany
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2025 11:02 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch Centring tool |
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| lateral wrote: |
Hi Ray,
Sorry for the long time before following up.
I've been busy collecting the various new parts for the upcoming rebuild of the Type 4 engine plus working on a few of my other cars.
Just to remind you, the original engine was replaced with an 1800cc engine.
I have a question that I would like to have answered before I embark on this project:
1. Crankshaft needle bearing - it is my intention to reuse the existing crankshaft, flywheel, clutch and pressure plate. Am I correct in that whilst the size of the input shaft spline in a Type 4 gearbox is narrower than other VW input shafts (Type 1,2), the 'tip" of the input shaft is the same and the correct Crankshaft Needle Bearing (Spigot bearing) is part # 111 105 313A. Meaning that should I want to install the new engine into a Type 2 Kombi, then the only thing that needs to be changed is the clutch plate?
The reason for this question is that we will be wanting to fit the newly refurbished engine to a Type 1 "chassis" so that we can dyno tune it before installation back into the 411.
Thanks again for any help you can provide Ray.
Cheers
Greg |
Yes, the splines of clutch plate and trans shaft for all type 4, 411, 412 is different from all the other air cooled VW´s. The lenght and diameter of trans shaft "tip" guided in needle bearing is the same as on type 2 busses 8´71 onwards with 1700, 1800, 2000 ccm engines.
Flywheel, clutch 411, 412:
411 early, only mod 69 has 200 mm,
411, 412 mod 70 - 74: 210 mm or 215 mm (to find 210 mm clutch parts for bus, can be a problem)
Flywheel, clutch bus, 7´71 - 6´79 with 1,7, 1,8 and 2,0: 210 mm, 215 mm and 228 mm
To install a type 4 engine from a 411, 412 or 914 in a bus, a bus clutch plate is needed. The bus trans must have the shaft with the long "tip" (a 914 flywheel does NOT fit in a original bus trans)
To install a type 4 engine in a beetle:
The type 4 flywheel has to be machined to accept a special pilot needle bearing directly in flywheel, because the shaft of beetle transmission is too short to reach properly the pilot bearing inside of type 4 crank.
A mechanical fuel pump on type 4 based engines must be removed, the opening blocked off. (would contact beetle trans mount and frame fork)
Beetle transmissions (130 teeth, guided throw out bearing) accept type 4 flywheels with 200, 210, 215 clutch, but only with original pressure plates and bus clutch plates. (some aftermarket 215 clutches are making problems)
The 228 mm bus flywheel and clutch from 8´75 onwards does NOT fit a unmachined beetle trans.
(in germany, in 1973 Ing. Bernd Riechert was the first who installed type 4 engines in Superbeetles, even with german TUEV) |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23004
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2025 9:20 am Post subject: Re: Clutch Centring tool |
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| wagen19 wrote: |
| lateral wrote: |
Hi Ray,
Sorry for the long time before following up.
I've been busy collecting the various new parts for the upcoming rebuild of the Type 4 engine plus working on a few of my other cars.
Just to remind you, the original engine was replaced with an 1800cc engine.
I have a question that I would like to have answered before I embark on this project:
1. Crankshaft needle bearing - it is my intention to reuse the existing crankshaft, flywheel, clutch and pressure plate. Am I correct in that whilst the size of the input shaft spline in a Type 4 gearbox is narrower than other VW input shafts (Type 1,2), the 'tip" of the input shaft is the same and the correct Crankshaft Needle Bearing (Spigot bearing) is part # 111 105 313A. Meaning that should I want to install the new engine into a Type 2 Kombi, then the only thing that needs to be changed is the clutch plate?
The reason for this question is that we will be wanting to fit the newly refurbished engine to a Type 1 "chassis" so that we can dyno tune it before installation back into the 411.
Thanks again for any help you can provide Ray.
Cheers
Greg |
Yes, the splines of clutch plate and trans shaft for all type 4, 411, 412 is different from all the other air cooled VW´s. The lenght and diameter of trans shaft "tip" guided in needle bearing is the same as on type 2 busses 8´71 onwards with 1700, 1800, 2000 ccm engines.
Flywheel, clutch 411, 412:
411 early, only mod 69 has 200 mm,
411, 412 mod 70 - 74: 210 mm or 215 mm (to find 210 mm clutch parts for bus, can be a problem)
Flywheel, clutch bus, 7´71 - 6´79 with 1,7, 1,8 and 2,0: 210 mm, 215 mm and 228 mm
To install a type 4 engine from a 411, 412 or 914 in a bus, a bus clutch plate is needed. The bus trans must have the shaft with the long "tip" (a 914 flywheel does NOT fit in a original bus trans)
To install a type 4 engine in a beetle:
The type 4 flywheel has to be machined to accept a special pilot needle bearing directly in flywheel, because the shaft of beetle transmission is too short to reach properly the pilot bearing inside of type 4 crank.
A mechanical fuel pump on type 4 based engines must be removed, the opening blocked off. (would contact beetle trans mount and frame fork)
Beetle transmissions (130 teeth, guided throw out bearing) accept type 4 flywheels with 200, 210, 215 clutch, but only with original pressure plates and bus clutch plates. (some aftermarket 215 clutches are making problems)
The 228 mm bus flywheel and clutch from 8´75 onwards does NOT fit a unmachined beetle trans.
(in germany, in 1973 Ing. Bernd Riechert was the first who installed type 4 engines in Superbeetles, even with german TUEV) |
Yes!...you beat me to it!
The installation of the needle bearing in the flywheel is not that much work.
There are some useful notes about in in these threads. The Porsche 914 has some of the same issues.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=170663&highlight=diesel+needle+bearing
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=737893&highlight=diesel+needle+bearing
Because you also need the felt ring...you might look at the diesel Vanagon needle bearing to put in your flywheel becaue it incorporates the felt ring into the bearing
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Ray |
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lateral
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2012
Posts: 94
Location: Sydney Australia
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2025 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch Centring tool |
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Thanks guys!
I love this forum!
I’ll keep you all updated.
Cheers
Greg |
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lateral
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2012
Posts: 94
Location: Sydney Australia
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2025 9:18 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch Centring tool |
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Ok,
I little bit of an update.
I've started the engine removal process and have discovered the following.
The original engine was replaced by a previous owner with an AP series 1800cc engine.
The fan housing that was used is 021 119 225A.
After lots of googling, it looks like the original heater exchanges from the original engine were used (021 91 256/021 092 256M). I got these part numbers from the CSP website as they have brand new exhanges for 411 that look exactly the same as I have installed on my car. (I have attached a few images).
I am wanting to ideally get the heaters working.
The issue I have is that the original heater exchanges do not match up to the fan housing as per the attached image.
Non 411 Type 4 heat exchanges I think may hang lower and have a different pipe setup from the engine bay fan connections.
Does anyone have any ideas?
Cheers
Greg
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wagen19
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 543
Location: germany
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2025 12:27 am Post subject: Re: Clutch Centring tool |
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The original heat exchanges for the model 69 only "V-engine" were 021 256 091 B and 021 256 092 B.
These early style heat exchanges match only the V-engine only fan housing.
With luck you can find original ones, probably used only.
Otherwise cutting and welding is required to make the new edition to match for V-engine. (not sure for the moment, whether the model 70 onwards newer fan house and all sheet material fits on complete old V-engines)
https://www.volkswagen-classic-parts.com/catalogues/Typ4/html5.html#/126
The first 411 model 69 only has many special, year 69 only parts, what can be a challenge to find them (new). |
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lateral
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2012
Posts: 94
Location: Sydney Australia
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2025 1:37 am Post subject: Re: Clutch Centring tool |
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Thanks for the reply.
Just to be clear, the car has a AP (1800cc) engine installed and not a “V” series engine. It looks like the heater exchanges may be from the “V” series engine.
Am I correct in thinking that later style heat exchanges sit closer to the ground than the V series exchanges and therefore the muffler will sit lower?
Cheers
Greg |
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wagen19
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 543
Location: germany
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2025 3:04 am Post subject: Re: Clutch Centring tool |
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| lateral wrote: |
Thanks for the reply.
Just to be clear, the car has a AP (1800cc) engine installed and not a “V” series engine. It looks like the heater exchanges may be from the “V” series engine.
Am I correct in thinking that later style heat exchanges sit closer to the ground than the V series exchanges and therefore the muffler will sit lower?
Cheers
Greg |
I don´t think, that the later heat exchanges are sitting closer to ground.
These parts are aftermarket and so the quatity is nor quite clear.
A 1800 AP engine is from 74-75 bus and has 68 hp and so clearly has no "V-engine-parts. (should originally have the large bus heat exchanges)
Is it possible that "V-exchanges" had been modificated to fit more bad than good on the AP-engine? (in your pic)
There must be a mix of V-parts and AP-parts on your engine to fit into the 69 engine compartment. |
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lateral
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2012
Posts: 94
Location: Sydney Australia
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2025 3:55 am Post subject: Re: Clutch Centring tool |
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Thanks again for the reply and clarification.
Cheers
Greg |
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lateral
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2012
Posts: 94
Location: Sydney Australia
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2025 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch Centring tool |
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Hi guys
I've started the process and luckily I had a spare gearbox so that I could figure out how to get the E Clip out.
Here's a photo of the result.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23004
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2025 10:22 am Post subject: Re: Clutch Centring tool |
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| lateral wrote: |
Hi guys
I've started the process and luckily I had a spare gearbox so that I could figure out how to get the E Clip out.
Here's a photo of the result.
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Yes! This is such a cool feature of the 004 transmission.
I actually owned one for years and drove it for a while before discovering this feature.
It makes changing the clutch so much easier because you can pull the engine back maybe 1.75" and then straight down with teh shaft out of the way.
Another thing....if you plan to go ahead and replace the transmission input shaft seal....go ahead and pull the shaft all the way out of the transmission and then used the shaft as a clutch centering tool. Then replace teh seal...then install the shaft pulled back slightly and then install the engine and slide the shaft into place. Ray |
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lateral
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2012
Posts: 94
Location: Sydney Australia
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2025 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch Centering tool |
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Thanks Ray
Just another quick question, what oil do you suggest for the gearbox?
Can I use the same as I used for my Type 1/3 gearboxes such as Castrol Transmax (GL4) 80w?
Cheers
Greg |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23004
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2025 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch Centering tool |
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| lateral wrote: |
Thanks Ray
Just another quick question, what oil do you suggest for the gearbox?
Can I use the same as I used for my Type 1/3 gearboxes such as Castrol Transmax (GL4) 80w?
Cheers
Greg |
Any of the GL4 straight weight like that should be fine! I would use the mineral based one (not synthetic) for now. Ray |
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