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wagen19
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Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 543
Location: germany
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 Posted: Tue May 13, 2025 4:44 am Post subject: Re: Oil Filter Mount Gasket 021-115-359A |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| What the heck do the rips do? |
Not serious, please take it as humour:
if we can´t find a answer here, we eventually can ask Mr Ed.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&a...p;dpr=1.33
Eventually the ribs can help to remove the casted parts out of the casting tool, or it´s simply design. (just a idea)
Since when were the 4 Audi rings also on VW emblem?
The 411 was clearly a "Nordhoff car" and had nothing to do with DKW, NSU or AUDI.
We can think about 1969, the NSU and 1970, later the VW K 70.
(from 1972 to 1973 VW, Audi had a huge number of different models. Type 3, 4, K 70, Audi 80, Audi 100, Ro 80, NSU Prinz for ex.)
In 1972 the Audi 80 appeared and in 1973 the new VW Passat.
So we can assume, the change was around that time.
In Oct 1974 the Audi 50 appeared, til 7´78. Then that car was sold as "Polo". |
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SGKent 
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Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2025 6:48 am Post subject: Re: Oil Filter Mount Gasket 021-115-359A |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| What the heck do the rips do? |
you mean "ribs"? I would guess they are to strengthen it someway. It could also be that the original had none and they are to differentiate between models.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2025 11:17 am Post subject: Re: Oil Filter Mount Gasket 021-115-359A |
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wagen19 said:
| Quote: |
Since when were the 4 Audi rings also on VW emblem?
The 411 was clearly a "Nordhoff car" and had nothing to do with DKW, NSU or AUDI.
We can think about 1969, the NSU and 1970, later the VW K 70.
(from 1972 to 1973 VW, Audi had a huge number of different models. Type 3, 4, K 70, Audi 80, Audi 100, Ro 80, NSU Prinz for ex.) |
This is really a good and pertinent question for this thread.
For the onlookers I realize we are in the bay window forum....but...your engine came from "our" engine (meaning the 411/412 guys). And, a lot of strange and convoluted stuff was done during the span of the type 4 engine and the history of what was done when and why causes to shortage of issues.
The historcial timeline of parts variations is just as bad/difficult in the 411/412 community...if not worse. So while on this subject for this part...lets talk about a few things.
So.....
There were the early, EARLY 411 cars. 1968 into 1969. Lots of things were done to only a few cars produced in this era. A lot of these "things"...did not make it into what I consider to be the "middle years"....late 1969 (call it 1970) into ~early 1972. Only about 1 year of anything in that era made it to the US and not very many numerically.
Then you have the the later years which are JUST BEFORE the model year change in 1972 all the way through early 1975.
| Quote: |
| Since when were the 4 Audi rings also on VW emblem? |
While not from any official notes or procclamations...I first started noticing the Audi ring symbol being put on new build parts (whether they were on a new build of an old part or on new build for a VW only).....in about 1977. This was across a wide range of parts. However, there were a very few primarily plastic parts I saw on the VW 412 that had an Audi ring symbol from 1974. Very few parts.
While the 411/412 was a Heinz Nordhoff car....and was commisioned and started before the official merger/acquisition of NSU by vw...there are a few things to consider that REALLY muddy the water.
1. VW acquired the majority of shares of "Auto Union" in Deecmber of 1964. Therefore there "could" have been some early parts that had the ring symbol on them.
2. Just for historical note....VW did not fully acquire Audi until 11-16-2020. I had thought it was long before that...but one has to remember that there is a difference between having a majority of stock (what the case was before 2020)...and actually merging or owning...which happened in 2020.
3. Most importantly, NSU was bought by VW in 1969...and MERGED into Audi-NSU-Auto Union AG......AND.....NSU ceased as an individual brand in ....1977....which may have had something to do with when I first started seeing the Audi ring symbol being used on strictly VW parts right around this time.
Plants for the 411/412-
Wolfsburg
Uitenhage for assembly in Australia
BUT.....NSU produced cars post war. And they collaborated with lots of other countries under license (Yugoslavia, Egypt among others) and for design (Bertone) ....And if one looks at a lot of the trim, body panel shapes etc....of NSU in the mid 60's onward....fine details and not wholesale shapes....you can see the lineage.....that there were a lot of parts for the 411/412...made by NSU.
Add to this....its not clear where certain VW 411/412 parts were produced in this huge conglomerate of manufacturing.....in later 411 and 412 (middle years into the last of the 412)....there are more than a handful of body parts that literally have the oval NSU decal on them.
Most of the 411/412 headlight assemblies or bezels that were not directly produced by Hella have an NSU label.
And....the 004 manual transmission....is so obviously of Audi lineage. When you strip one down to parts...and start looking at manual transmissions from early Audi products like 100LS and the Audi 4000.....there are so many production and design similarities in the type 4 manual transmission 004 ....that are nothing like the other ACVW...that could have only been taken from Audi or NSU production. You can also see some of the roots of the 411/412 manual transmission if you have ever looked at manual transmissions from the NSU Prinz cars.
There is more than a little bit of "NSU" in the 411/412. I am not talking design/architecture. I am speaking of casting decisions and details.
So...back to this oilfilter mount.
So....there are quite a few permutations here.
1. The early weaker type with rounded boss over the pressure relief valve 021-115-355
2. The later 021-115-355A with oval boss
3. The still later 021-115-355A with oval boss with Audi logo
4. And this oddity....a round boss 021-115-355A....with no Audi logo
https://www.ebay.com/itm/256462888404 same EBay add picture that SGKent posted
5. The even still ....everything in my VW 411/412 parts book shows this part to have a part # of 021 115 353 for early and 021 115 353 A for late.......and every single picture I can find online.....shows a cast in part # of 021 115 355
This means more than just an early and late (in my opinion). Using the 021 115 355 or 021 115 355A to seacrh will not even net you a photograph in google (it will get you a few sites that have one for sale). But when you search with 021-115-353 or 353A....you get every picture in the world of these mounts...but all have the 355 part #.
I will have to look at some of my 411/412 only mounts. Ray |
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Good Old Dusty
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Location: British Columbia
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2025 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Oil Filter Mount Gasket 021-115-359A |
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The photo shows the engine from my 1978 Bus, with GE case, during disassembly in 2017. The location of the oil filter mount attachment point is visible in the bottom right. The second photo zooms in on the mount attachment point on the case before case cleaning. At this point the gasket has been removed, however the shape of the original gasket is still visible on the case. It shows a third hole, in the elongated shape in the original gasket. Looks like this version of the 1978 year used the current gasket style.
Photo 1: Engine disassembly 2017
Photo 2:Oil filter mount attachment point
After putting 10K kilometers on this rebuilt engine I suspect it is leaking at the filter mount. Alternately it could be the oil cooler mount. Oil flows downhill. Short of removing the engine and tearing it down, I would need to examine this with a surgical borescope. Just need to befriend a proctologist to borrow the equipment. |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2025 11:57 am Post subject: Re: Oil Filter Mount Gasket 021-115-359A |
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| wagen19 wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| What the heck do the rips do? |
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Definitely meant ribs. Don't think they are there for strength as they are far from stout, but to have so many required quite a bit of extra machining of the mold if they are there just for identification.
Could be something in the casting process that I just don't understand. |
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
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Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2025 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Filter Mount Gasket 021-115-359A |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| wagen19 wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| What the heck do the rips do? |
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Definitely meant ribs. Don't think they are there for strength as they are far from stout, but to have so many required quite a bit of extra machining of the mold if they are there just for identification.
Could be something in the casting process that I just don't understand. |
I was thinking maybe design or someone was a musician and liked to play them like a washboard. 
That said, the gasket on Good Old Dusty's 1978 is thin like Mike's. I can see where a gasket like this is a better solution than what is out there now. When the old stock early ones come in, I plan to mic it and see how thick it is compared to the ones available now and post the results. Most likely I will exacto the third long hole.
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wagen19
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Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 543
Location: germany
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2025 10:48 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Filter Mount Gasket 021-115-359A |
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Hello Ray,
imo it would be a good idea to start a detailed type 4 "development-thread" in the type 4 forum.
It was a interesting story and not all went the way as planned. (D-jetronic for type 4) While for the type 3, D-jet came in Aug 67, for the new high end type 4, it came Aug 69 only for shifters and in 1970 also for Automatics. (The 914 had the D-jet already from start on, in 1969.
Suggested Timeline:
> Aug 68 to Juli 69: only type 41 + 42, dual carbs, V-engine for shifters and Automatic, many early mod 69 only details, (the ugly coatie and noicy cyclops)
> 8´69 to ?: 411 E
> "late 411"
> 8´72 to 7´73: early 412 (late D-jet)
> 8´73 to 7´74: late 412, no D-jet (in Germany), L-jet or dual carbs (again) due to problems with D-jet, L-jet for USA, new model 74 only shocks on front end, etc.
(compare old tests of 412 and Passat Lim and Variant with 55 hp or 75 hp)
and much more... |
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SGKent
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2025 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Filter Mount Gasket 021-115-359A |
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Colin wrote and said he remembers the change. It was done to increase "unit pressure." I am guessing that means reduce surface area to increase the gasket crush more evenly as we discussed.
I found two I have, there may be a couple more, it so I will add them tomorrow.
The one on the left based on the logo is an original factory gasket "Reinzoloid FS 53". The one on the right is from a Victor Reinz type IV kit.
late 021-115-359A Factory "Reinzoloid FS 53" is .015" thick
late 021-115-359A Victor Reinz aftermarket is .021" thick
early 021-115-359 Factory "Reinzoloid FS 53" is .017" thick
The Loctite 577 probably will work this time. I had a tiny bit of film from it on my hands when I wiped my Mitutoyo calipers down, and the jaws were stuck together when I pulled them out tonight. Interestingly, Isopropyl alcohol dissolved it.
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Last edited by SGKent on Thu May 15, 2025 10:54 am; edited 2 times in total |
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wagen19
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Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 543
Location: germany
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2025 11:17 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Filter Mount Gasket 021-115-359A |
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| wagen19 wrote: |
Hello Ray,
EDIT 15.05.2025:
imo it would be a good idea to start a detailed type 4 "development-thread" in the type 4 forum.
Engines for early 411 and 914:
Facts:
A magnesium case, dual carb "V-engine" with 68 hp was never in the 914 (serial). (for Porsche probably too weak and old fashioned, compared the 912)
Note the affixed tube for oil level dipstick on V-engines! No way to use that in 914.
Material of engine case for 914:
As far as I know, the 914 never had a magnesium case. So not a single D-jet "W-engine" in magnesium is known.
So, for me, I have the idea, first the 411 was planned as "uber-beetle" and long times not thought about the 914 project.
Imo it looks more, the D-jet "W-engines" were developed for Porsche first (only).
Later, from model 1970 on, the "Porsche W-engines" started for type 4.
But it´s hard to understand, why VW started the 411 in Aug 1968 with that "old fashioned" magnesium dual carb 68 hp only engine, while the type 3 had the D-jet already in Aug 1967.
It was a interesting story and probably not all went the way as planned. D-jet in type 4 came Aug 69, but only for shifters and later in 1970 also for Automatics. (The 914 had the D-jet already from start on, in 1969.
The more solid type 4 alu (Si 12) cases and engines were the more solid base olso for the type 2, starting in Aug 1971.
(knowing VW once has tested Automatic busses with 100 hp GB-engines, top speed on paper was 140 km/h with TUEV)
Suggested Timeline:
> Aug 68 to Juli 69: only type 41 + 42, dual carbs, V-engine for shifters and Automatic, many early mod 69 only details, (the ugly coatie and noicy cyclops)
> 8´69 to ?: 411 E
> "late 411"
> 8´72 to 7´73: early 412 (late D-jet)
> 8´73 to 7´74: late 412, no D-jet (in Germany), L-jet or dual carbs (again) due to problems with D-jet, L-jet for USA, new model 74 only shocks on front end, etc.
(compare old tests of 412 and Passat Lim and Variant with 55 hp or 75 hp)
and much more... |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 13407
Location: West Coast, USA
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2025 12:16 am Post subject: Re: Oil Filter Mount Gasket 021-115-359A |
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I'm enjoying learning a bit here. I don't have much to add, besides the dozens of T4 buses I work on just don't seem to leak from this area much. In half a decade I've only replaced this gasket "while we were in there," never as a deliberate repair.
Robbie
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SGKent
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Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2025 12:22 am Post subject: Re: Oil Filter Mount Gasket 021-115-359A |
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| airschooled wrote: |
I'm enjoying learning a bit here. I don't have much to add, besides the dozens of T4 buses I work on just don't seem to leak from this area much. In half a decade I've only replaced this gasket "while we were in there," never as a deliberate repair.
Robbie |
: only because you have not had that fail. Had the first one not snapped where it could be heard clear across the garage, I never would worry about this. I don't think my last one leaked, but I really plan this to be the very last time I am working on leaks. The first T4 engine built has a tiny drop or two occasionally. The case was line bored and I wasn't happy with the RIMCO work, so I looked for a new case. It leaked miserably out of one plug. So I put this case back in and ended up with a leak. Serves me right, but the next time this runs, it is not going to leak. If it does I will disclose it, sell it as is and let the next person deal with it. The problem is that we are dealing with copies of copies of copies. I found two more gaskets tonight. Don't know where they came from because it has been 15 years, but they are .014 thick and made of a thin brown cardboard like paper. What we all want is "Hi, local VW dealer, I'd like one of these..." "Sure, that will be $1.59."
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wagen19
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Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 543
Location: germany
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2025 12:38 am Post subject: Re: Oil Filter Mount Gasket 021-115-359A |
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| airschooled wrote: |
I'm enjoying learning a bit here. I don't have much to add, besides the dozens of T4 buses I work on just don't seem to leak from this area much. In half a decade I've only replaced this gasket "while we were in there," never as a deliberate repair.
Robbie |
x 2
Imo, if you would use a factory gasket and affix it dry with a torque of 20 Nm, just as once in factory, this would minimize issues!!!
Only the first filter mounts on 69 only type 4 * V-engines * up to nr. 0 033 302 had a structural problem and tended to crack.
But with brutal force you can crack anything! |
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SGKent
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2025 1:19 am Post subject: Re: Oil Filter Mount Gasket 021-115-359A |
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| wagen19 wrote: |
| airschooled wrote: |
I'm enjoying learning a bit here. I don't have much to add, besides the dozens of T4 buses I work on just don't seem to leak from this area much. In half a decade I've only replaced this gasket "while we were in there," never as a deliberate repair.
Robbie |
x 2
Imo, if you would use a factory gasket and affix it dry with a torque of 20 Nm, just as once in factory, this would minimize issues!!!
Only the first filter mounts on 69 only type 4 * V-engines * up to nr. 0 033 302 had a structural problem and tended to crack.
But with brutal force you can crack anything! |
that is what I will probably do. Colin suggested Aviation permatex as did several others.
Really - I wish I had a video of what happened that one time in 2011 or. I put the old standby Gascacinch on it in a very thin coat. Let it dry, then installed and torqued to spec. The gasket looked normal and did not squeeze out. Done - wrong. I am standing 15 - 20' from it and I hear a crack. Hmmmn. Go over and start inspecting everything. The mount is in two pieces - the thin part blew out and where it blew out the uneven force one end off the mount. Tried several different sealers over the next couple weeks once I found a replacement mount, but in every situation as I tightened the gasket began to blow out. I put a known straight edge on it, all flat, mounted with no gasket to see if feeler gauges would go under it. No. The last couple engines I put on dry but they leaked thru the gallery plugs so there was no real way to test it. That said, I did find people who had leaks there. Even Mark (Busdaddy) had one on his factory GE engine and went thru the whole process. A gasket as simple as that should be bullet proof. It isn't like a seal on a rocket booster.
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wagen19
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Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 543
Location: germany
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2025 2:08 am Post subject: Re: Oil Filter Mount Gasket 021-115-359A |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| wagen19 wrote: |
| airschooled wrote: |
I'm enjoying learning a bit here. I don't have much to add, besides the dozens of T4 buses I work on just don't seem to leak from this area much. In half a decade I've only replaced this gasket "while we were in there," never as a deliberate repair.
Robbie |
x 2
Imo, if you would use a factory gasket and affix it dry with a torque of 20 Nm, just as once in factory, this would minimize issues!!!
Only the first filter mounts on 69 only type 4 * V-engines * up to nr. 0 033 302 had a structural problem and tended to crack.
But with brutal force you can crack anything! |
that is what I will probably do. Colin suggested Aviation permatex as did several others.
Really - I wish I had a video of what happened that one time in 2011 or. I put the old standby Gascacinch on it in a very thin coat. Let it dry, then installed and torqued to spec. The gasket looked normal and did not squeeze out. Done - wrong. I am standing 15 - 20' from it and I hear a crack. Hmmmn. Go over and start inspecting everything. The mount is in two pieces - the thin part blew out and where it blew out the uneven force one end off the mount. Tried several different sealers over the next couple weeks once I found a replacement mount, but in every situation as I tightened the gasket began to blow out. I put a known straight edge on it, all flat, mounted with no gasket to see if feeler gauges would go under it. No. The last couple engines I put on dry but they leaked thru the gallery plugs so there was no real way to test it. That said, I did find people who had leaks there. Even Mark (Busdaddy) had one on his factory GE engine and went thru the whole process. A gasket as simple as that should be bullet proof. It isn't like a seal on a rocket booster. |
Any kind of liquid gasket added to that ribbed paper gasket, can work as a lubricant and reduce friction when the bolts of filter mount are tightend.
Imo, that´s most probably the favor or reason for blowing out the paper gasket and cracking the filter mount then.
Again, suggest to ask yourself, or have a look in bentley, what kind of liquid gasket was used by factory? Why testing own ways of unknown success here?
The new style paper gasket with that channel added, is designed to affix it dry.
While using the old style gasket without hole, channel or gap, imo, liquid gasket, if you "must" use it, should be not that high risk for blowing out the gasket and cracking the filter mount. |
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SGKent
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2025 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Oil Filter Mount Gasket 021-115-359A |
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thanks. I waffle on a sealant for the reasons discussed.
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Good Old Dusty
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2025 10:47 am Post subject: Re: Oil Filter Mount Gasket 021-115-359A |
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Photo shows: Detail of filter mount base installed on case, showing Curil K2 around base.
Looking back in the records of my engine build in 2018, my notes for this step in the process read: Oil Filter Housing apply gasket with Curil K-2. Apply nuts and washers - no torque spec - use 15 ft-lbs. The gasket was in a VR engine rebuild kit as supplied by The Type 4 Store as part of a Camper Special Kit.
In my research for this project I referred to the Ratwell site, Jake’s video, Wilsons book and of course the Bentley Manual. I couldn’t find a torque spec for this part. Do we all agree that the torque for this should be 15 ft-lbs (20 Nm)? |
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SGKent
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2025 11:09 am Post subject: Re: Oil Filter Mount Gasket 021-115-359A |
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14 ft lbs in the Orange factory manual.
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SGKent
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2025 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Filter Mount Gasket 021-115-359A |
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straight edged the two mounts I have, both had a tiny bit of warp. Sanded them flat again on a piece of glass. The one on it has some porosity in the aluminum, which probably was responsible for some of minor seeping at that spot. Both are in the ultrasonic cleaner and I will check them again when clean. The one that is in best shape, the relief ball has lost chrome and is showing copper. The other one is not but it is a little porous. The ball is staked in pretty good and I hate to take them out to swap them or try to find another ball bearing the same OD. The chrome looks worn away and not chipping so I will probably go with that one. Just would hate to have a chrome chip end up in a bearing.
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2025 9:30 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Filter Mount Gasket 021-115-359A |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| straight edged the two mounts I have, both had a tiny bit of warp. Sanded them flat again on a piece of glass. The one on it has some porosity in the aluminum, which probably was responsible for some of minor seeping at that spot. Both are in the ultrasonic cleaner and I will check them again when clean. The one that is in best shape, the relief ball has lost chrome and is showing copper. The other one is not but it is a little porous. The ball is staked in pretty good and I hate to take them out to swap them or try to find another ball bearing the same OD. The chrome looks worn away and not chipping so I will probably go with that one. Just would hate to have a chrome chip end up in a bearing. |
If you use a filter with a built in relief then you don't need the bypass in the adapter, so you should be able to just removing the ball and plug the port. |
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SGKent
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2025 10:25 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Filter Mount Gasket 021-115-359A |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
| straight edged the two mounts I have, both had a tiny bit of warp. Sanded them flat again on a piece of glass. The one on it has some porosity in the aluminum, which probably was responsible for some of minor seeping at that spot. Both are in the ultrasonic cleaner and I will check them again when clean. The one that is in best shape, the relief ball has lost chrome and is showing copper. The other one is not but it is a little porous. The ball is staked in pretty good and I hate to take them out to swap them or try to find another ball bearing the same OD. The chrome looks worn away and not chipping so I will probably go with that one. Just would hate to have a chrome chip end up in a bearing. |
If you use a filter with a built in relief then you don't need the bypass in the adapter, so you should be able to just removing the ball and plug the port. |
Have to think that one thru Mike. I think it bypasses the filter when that ball is open - in case the filter can't pass the oil, and it lacks its own bypass.
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