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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23004
Location: Oklahoma City
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 Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2025 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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| Jeremiah Berger wrote: |
Sorry yeah that was a typo. I was looking and comparing the difference between the two as well
So which would you go with? I thought 8.5:1 might be getting too high on the compression, but I know you said the djet will like the higher compression to an extent.
And I guess 8.3 is not very much more if it is 8.2 stock...
Maybe a .040 shim instead? |
The 8.5:1 is excellent. It means you can tune fuel tighter and even pull back advance by 2-3°....if you need to....with better running. But the 8.3 is just fine as well. Ray |
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Jeremiah Berger
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Joined: September 16, 2018
Posts: 132
Location: MAINE
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2025 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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| Thanks for the input, that's probably what I'll do. |
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Jeremiah Berger
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2018
Posts: 132
Location: MAINE
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| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2025 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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My next question is did you ever get around to fitting an alternative alternator.?
I was considering the 70 amp bus upgrade but can't seem to find very many and wondering if there are any other options?
I have the compressor now and also would love the options of stereo etc...
My original is working but I can't justify not replacing or upgrading it while I'm doing all this.... |
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Jeremiah Berger
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2018
Posts: 132
Location: MAINE
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2025 7:29 am Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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I think my last question may have been missed, no worries.
After looking at refurbished 70amp ones and realizing how expensive they are I think I'm gonna just get a refurbished Bosch 55 that I can get for $125 w core exchange. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23004
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2025 8:41 am Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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| Jeremiah Berger wrote: |
I think my last question may have been missed, no worries.
After looking at refurbished 70amp ones and realizing how expensive they are I think I'm gonna just get a refurbished Bosch 55 that I can get for $125 w core exchange. |
Sorry, it's been busy. I have been looking at a few different common alternators but have not pulled the trigger on one yet.
I will have a more complete answer later today. Ray |
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Jeremiah Berger
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2018
Posts: 132
Location: MAINE
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2025 7:23 am Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Jeremiah Berger wrote: |
I think my last question may have been missed, no worries.
After looking at refurbished 70amp ones and realizing how expensive they are I think I'm gonna just get a refurbished Bosch 55 that I can get for $125 w core exchange. |
Sorry, it's been busy. I have been looking at a few different common alternators but have not pulled the trigger on one yet.
I will have a more complete answer later today. Ray |
No worries Ray, I'll hold off for now. I'm a bit out from there anyway and I'm heading for a week vacation next week so I won't be doing much over the next couple weeks. |
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Jeremiah Berger
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2018
Posts: 132
Location: MAINE
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2025 9:05 am Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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I found this vacuum kit for a 914 on auto Atlanta....is this the same or close to the same as our 412s with d jet? A bit pricey but does anyone know of anyone else?
I saw a thread where Germansupply.com was considering it but don't see it on there website...
It would be nice to be able to get them all in one place.
Or do we have a list or a thread already covering the different sizes needed?
I botched mine together before with a bunch of random stuff as close as I could get
https://www.ebay.com/itm/232088077766 |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23004
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2025 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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| Jeremiah Berger wrote: |
I found this vacuum kit for a 914 on auto Atlanta....is this the same or close to the same as our 412s with d jet? A bit pricey but does anyone know of anyone else?
I saw a thread where Germansupply.com was considering it but don't see it on there website...
It would be nice to be able to get them all in one place.
Or do we have a list or a thread already covering the different sizes needed?
I botched mine together before with a bunch of random stuff as close as I could get
https://www.ebay.com/itm/232088077766 |
So....for everything on top of the engine, the 914 is pretty close. There are a few differences though.
The large 12-14mm gray pipes on a 411/412 run from the charcoal canister to the cooling shroud and air cleaner. Becaue its a mid engine on the 914, those hoses are shorter.
Also, there is no automatic on the 914, so there is no odd Y on the right hand side of the engine connecting to the center manifold and then down to the automatic modulator valve. There also will not be a vacuum dashpot connection with the small red hose on a 914.
So, looking at what its missing and then looking at the price....I would say no...its not worth it.
I will have to see if I have enough of the hoses on hand (there is no engine in my car right now) to set you up on what you need. Ask those guys if they have a diagram where everything in that kit goes. Ray |
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Jeremiah Berger
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2018
Posts: 132
Location: MAINE
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2025 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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Well unfortunately I made the mistake of not only taking my fan apart but also not marking it for orientation for reassembling.
I originally thought it had no orientation because the timing mark was not on the pulley like a bus. I then noticed before assembling that there was a weight embedded in the edge of the pulley, obviously balanced from the factory.
Then I went on here and read that not only is it balanced that it shouldn't be taken apart because it has to be recentered/ trued when put back together
Even if I can figure out the trueing part, am I screwed on the balance weight orientation? Or is there by some miracle chance they where all oriented a certain way to compensate for the fan hub eccentricity?
Any help is greatly appreciated like usual. I guess it's better finding out now then later... |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23004
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2025 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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| Jeremiah Berger wrote: |
Well unfortunately I made the mistake of not only taking my fan apart but also not marking it for orientation for reassembling.
I originally thought it had no orientation because the timing mark was not on the pulley like a bus. I then noticed before assembling that there was a weight embedded in the edge of the pulley, obviously balanced from the factory.
Then I went on here and read that not only is it balanced that it shouldn't be taken apart because it has to be recentered/ trued when put back together
Even if I can figure out the trueing part, am I screwed on the balance weight orientation? Or is there by some miracle chance they where all oriented a certain way to compensate for the fan hub eccentricity?
Any help is greatly appreciated like usual. I guess it's better finding out now then later... |
So....a couple of things I can do.
1. I have a stack of about 6 fans and I can check and see if there is any similarity in weight position.
2. But.....even though our timing marks are on the aluminum part...sometimes there is a notch or punch mark that is on the pulley that either marks TDC corresponding to the aluminum fan or to a bus timing scale.
3. Check this out. Once you find the orientation it's not that hard for bolt it onto the end of the crank and work with a dial indicator to recenter the fan.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=693897&highlight=fan+alignment
Ray |
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Jeremiah Berger
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Joined: September 16, 2018
Posts: 132
Location: MAINE
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2025 3:34 am Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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Thanks Ray that would be great. I sure hope they are all in the same vicinity, and it would kind of make sense that they would be.
I looked all over the pulley but I can't find any punches or markings.
I did already find that thread and read it and I could manage the trueing part by either building a jig or doing it on the case with a micrometer.
Doing on the crank seams like it could work pretty well except for having to take it on and off to tighten the bolts...but I'm thinking if I take the fan housing back off I may have room to get behind it... |
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Jeremiah Berger
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Joined: September 16, 2018
Posts: 132
Location: MAINE
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2025 5:29 am Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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Ok, so I actually just did a deep scan on the pulley and found this VW logo stamp on the inside edge that matches up perfectly to tdc if line up in that quadrant..
So that's the mark I'm looking for right? This also puts the weight opposite of the dowel pin which is what you would expect.
Last edited by Jeremiah Berger on Sun May 18, 2025 5:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jeremiah Berger
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Joined: September 16, 2018
Posts: 132
Location: MAINE
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2025 5:32 am Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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heimlich 
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 7410
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2025 8:23 am Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Jeremiah Berger wrote: |
Well unfortunately I made the mistake of not only taking my fan apart but also not marking it for orientation for reassembling.
I originally thought it had no orientation because the timing mark was not on the pulley like a bus. I then noticed before assembling that there was a weight embedded in the edge of the pulley, obviously balanced from the factory.
Then I went on here and read that not only is it balanced that it shouldn't be taken apart because it has to be recentered/ trued when put back together
Even if I can figure out the trueing part, am I screwed on the balance weight orientation? Or is there by some miracle chance they where all oriented a certain way to compensate for the fan hub eccentricity?
Any help is greatly appreciated like usual. I guess it's better finding out now then later... |
So....a couple of things I can do.
1. I have a stack of about 6 fans and I can check and see if there is any similarity in weight position.
2. But.....even though our timing marks are on the aluminum part...sometimes there is a notch or punch mark that is on the pulley that either marks TDC corresponding to the aluminum fan or to a bus timing scale.
3. Check this out. Once you find the orientation it's not that hard for bolt it onto the end of the crank and work with a dial indicator to recenter the fan.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=693897&highlight=fan+alignment
Ray |
Looks like you have a key on that 3 bolt part. Does that key align with TDC? Whatever it aligns to you can then use geometry to find the angles you need. Type 1 does something similar. Someone made a geometry wheel to overlay onto the pulley belt that bolts to the crank.
_________________
www.vwnos.com sales@vwnos.com
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here) |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23004
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2025 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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| heimlich wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Jeremiah Berger wrote: |
Well unfortunately I made the mistake of not only taking my fan apart but also not marking it for orientation for reassembling.
I originally thought it had no orientation because the timing mark was not on the pulley like a bus. I then noticed before assembling that there was a weight embedded in the edge of the pulley, obviously balanced from the factory.
Then I went on here and read that not only is it balanced that it shouldn't be taken apart because it has to be recentered/ trued when put back together
Even if I can figure out the trueing part, am I screwed on the balance weight orientation? Or is there by some miracle chance they where all oriented a certain way to compensate for the fan hub eccentricity?
Any help is greatly appreciated like usual. I guess it's better finding out now then later... |
So....a couple of things I can do.
1. I have a stack of about 6 fans and I can check and see if there is any similarity in weight position.
2. But.....even though our timing marks are on the aluminum part...sometimes there is a notch or punch mark that is on the pulley that either marks TDC corresponding to the aluminum fan or to a bus timing scale.
3. Check this out. Once you find the orientation it's not that hard for bolt it onto the end of the crank and work with a dial indicator to recenter the fan.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=693897&highlight=fan+alignment
Ray |
Looks like you have a key on that 3 bolt part. Does that key align with TDC? Whatever it aligns to you can then use geometry to find the angles you need. Type 1 does something similar. Someone made a geometry wheel to overlay onto the pulley belt that bolts to the crank. |
The three bolt "hub" is not the issue.
The fan is seperate from that and is made from TWO pieces.
1. The cast aluminum fan with the blades that bolts to that 3-bolt hub
2. The steel fan belt pulley ring that bolts to the case aluminum fan with 4 "through bolts".
The problem is that the fan ring was unbolted from the aluminum fan section. This causes 2 problems:
1. The four fan ring through bolts are not in precision holes. So if you loosen these four bolts so that the pulley ring is loose or remove the pulley ring altogether.....it will not SIMPLY go back on concentric to the cast aluminum fan section. This means that the pulley will wobble so hard it typically throws a belt in seconds.
At least this issue you can fix with either a 3 point jig on a table top or by mounting tje fan back on the crank and putting a dial indicator in the vee of the pulley and slowly rotating it and tapping it into place with the bolts slightly tight....until it's "0'd" and then tighten the bolts. Not hard.....just tedious.
2. The other problem is that almost all of the pulley rings have a balance weight crimped onto the edge. Some have more than one.
If you are not careful to mark where the balance weight is relative to a mark on the aluminun fan ring....or to the 0 mark....whichever you want to do....it can be out of balance.
This is what has happened here.
I looked at three of my fans today. One is 411/412/914 and two were bus fans.
The 411/412/914 fan .....has the stamped 0 on the aluminum fan section. We will call that 12 o'clock.
It also happens to have a bus timing mark on the pulley. That shows up right at 11 o'clock. Maybe 10:30...relative to the normal 411/412 "0" mark.
The balance weight shows up right between 8 and 9 o'clock positions.
On the other two fans (the bus fans).....both have a bus timing notch on the pulley that is at about 10:30 relative to where the 0 would be at 12 o'clock on the 411/412 fan. One of them ALSO has a stamped 0 like a type 4 car (so in that respect it's not much different than the first fan except the first fan was 100% known to come from a 411/412).
The balance weight appears right at 10:30 on both bus fans.....but one of the two also has a second timing notch on the pulley that is 180° from the first timing notch (appearing down around 4:30) .....and it also has a second larger weight. 180° from the other balance weight.
So it looks like one has been rebalanced. So it's inconclusive whether there is a common weight position.
I will post pics later.
Ray |
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heimlich
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 7410
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2025 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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I would think you can rebalance it. Maybe put it in a tire balancing machine.
_________________
www.vwnos.com sales@vwnos.com
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here) |
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Jeremiah Berger
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2018
Posts: 132
Location: MAINE
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2025 4:12 am Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| heimlich wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Jeremiah Berger wrote: |
Well unfortunately I made the mistake of not only taking my fan apart but also not marking it for orientation for reassembling.
I originally thought it had no orientation because the timing mark was not on the pulley like a bus. I then noticed before assembling that there was a weight embedded in the edge of the pulley, obviously balanced from the factory.
Then I went on here and read that not only is it balanced that it shouldn't be taken apart because it has to be recentered/ trued when put back together
Even if I can figure out the trueing part, am I screwed on the balance weight orientation? Or is there by some miracle chance they where all oriented a certain way to compensate for the fan hub eccentricity?
Did any of your fan pulleys have the VW stamp like mine did? Like I said it aligns exactly with tdc mark when in that quadrant....
Any help is greatly appreciated like usual. I guess it's better finding out now then later... |
So....a couple of things I can do.
1. I have a stack of about 6 fans and I can check and see if there is any similarity in weight position.
2. But.....even though our timing marks are on the aluminum part...sometimes there is a notch or punch mark that is on the pulley that either marks TDC corresponding to the aluminum fan or to a bus timing scale.
3. Check this out. Once you find the orientation it's not that hard for bolt it onto the end of the crank and work with a dial indicator to recenter the fan.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=693897&highlight=fan+alignment
Ray |
Looks like you have a key on that 3 bolt part. Does that key align with TDC? Whatever it aligns to you can then use geometry to find the angles you need. Type 1 does something similar. Someone made a geometry wheel to overlay onto the pulley belt that bolts to the crank. |
The three bolt "hub" is not the issue.
The fan is seperate from that and is made from TWO pieces.
1. The cast aluminum fan with the blades that bolts to that 3-bolt hub
2. The steel fan belt pulley ring that bolts to the case aluminum fan with 4 "through bolts".
The problem is that the fan ring was unbolted from the aluminum fan section. This causes 2 problems:
1. The four fan ring through bolts are not in precision holes. So if you loosen these four bolts so that the pulley ring is loose or remove the pulley ring altogether.....it will not SIMPLY go back on concentric to the cast aluminum fan section. This means that the pulley will wobble so hard it typically throws a belt in seconds.
At least this issue you can fix with either a 3 point jig on a table top or by mounting tje fan back on the crank and putting a dial indicator in the vee of the pulley and slowly rotating it and tapping it into place with the bolts slightly tight....until it's "0'd" and then tighten the bolts. Not hard.....just tedious.
2. The other problem is that almost all of the pulley rings have a balance weight crimped onto the edge. Some have more than one.
If you are not careful to mark where the balance weight is relative to a mark on the aluminun fan ring....or to the 0 mark....whichever you want to do....it can be out of balance.
This is what has happened here.
I looked at three of my fans today. One is 411/412/914 and two were bus fans.
The 411/412/914 fan .....has the stamped 0 on the aluminum fan section. We will call that 12 o'clock.
It also happens to have a bus timing mark on the pulley. That shows up right at 11 o'clock. Maybe 10:30...relative to the normal 411/412 "0" mark.
The balance weight shows up right between 8 and 9 o'clock positions.
On the other two fans (the bus fans).....both have a bus timing notch on the pulley that is at about 10:30 relative to where the 0 would be at 12 o'clock on the 411/412 fan. One of them ALSO has a stamped 0 like a type 4 car (so in that respect it's not much different than the first fan except the first fan was 100% known to come from a 411/412).
The balance weight appears right at 10:30 on both bus fans.....but one of the two also has a second timing notch on the pulley that is 180° from the first timing notch (appearing down around 4:30) .....and it also has a second larger weight. 180° from the other balance weight.
So it looks like one has been rebalanced. So it's inconclusive whether there is a common weight position.
I will post pics later.
Ray |
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Jeremiah Berger
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2018
Posts: 132
Location: MAINE
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2025 4:14 am Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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Ok so what about the VW stamp in the pulley? Is that just coincidence that this lines up with tdc in that quadrant? Or do any of the other pulleys have a VW stamp like mine?
Also considering what you are saying the weight is actually in the same quadrant in each instance correct? Let's call it 730-1030...
If I put my logo mark at bottomdc I get my weight at about 930.
That is some consistency I guess being all in the same quadrant? |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23004
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2025 6:27 am Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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| Jeremiah Berger wrote: |
Ok so what about the VW stamp in the pulley? Is that just coincidence that this lines up with tdc in that quadrant? Or do any of the other pulleys have a VW stamp like mine?
Also considering what you are saying the weight is actually in the same quadrant in each instance correct? Let's call it 730-1030...
If I put my logo mark at bottomdc I get my weight at about 930.
That is some consistency I guess being all in the same quadrant? |
Forgot to look for the vw logo. Checking later.
Ray |
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Jeremiah Berger
Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2018
Posts: 132
Location: MAINE
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2025 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: Jeremiah's 73 412 restoration project |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Jeremiah Berger wrote: |
Ok so what about the VW stamp in the pulley? Is that just coincidence that this lines up with tdc in that quadrant? Or do any of the other pulleys have a VW stamp like mine?
Also considering what you are saying the weight is actually in the same quadrant in each instance correct? Let's call it 730-1030...
If I put my logo mark at bottomdc I get my weight at about 930.
That is some consistency I guess being all in the same quadrant? |
Forgot to look for the vw logo. Checking later.
Ray |
Thanks Ray, I'll check back in a bit. |
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