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glutamodo 
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26535
Location: Douglas, WY
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 Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Long Studs and Valve Adjustment, (Stud Kit?) |
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| concepts12 wrote: |
Oh man guys. I was installing my rocker arms. I must have had a defected torque wrench.I broke one of the studs. Can anyone recommend where I can find a replacement. I have a 1961, 1200, 40hp, single port, stock VW, heads. I'm looking for long studs.
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Hmmm, well I wish you luck in your search. These broke pretty often back in the day and the fix was not to put in another long stud, but to change to short studs.
Also, what version of long stud do you have? VW changed them a few times before the square boss heads came around.
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Andy T.
"What is Glutamodo, Horror of Toyko, besides total, fiendish, quality-a-you brain!" |
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k9hdlr
Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2017
Posts: 10
Location: So Cal
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| glutamodo wrote: |
Those studs are not the same, although they are close. The DP ones are a bit short actually. If they were correct believe me I would know and I would have used them. When I worked at a VW parts/repair shop, where we had boxes labelled with all the differet head stud sizes. The 1965 40HP upper stud is M10x193mm stud is VW part number N145131. The upper/inner stud on the 10mm dual port is M10x188mm and is VW part number N145512
I do not advocate turning a 40HP into a 1600 - it works, but really, why bother with an old 40HP block? You'll have to convert the tin, intake and exhaust over to later model stuff, plus I think you have to get some cylinder base shims for to use at the block. If I wanted to build a 69mm stroke engine then why not just start with a newer or new dual relief 8mm stud block? |
So CB performance sells head stud kits 1223 Cylinder Head Studs - 10mm Chromoly - Dual Port for about $55. Are you saying these are the head studs I'd need to put my 1300 SP Square Boss heads onto my 1200 40HP motor? |
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glutamodo
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26535
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: Long Studs and Valve Adjustment, (Stud Kit?) |
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Well, if that's all you can find I guess you have to make do, but I never liked that fact that those are too short, but I said that above... 
also: it helps that I now have an extra set of correct ones sitting here. 
Keep in mind, a DP kit only has FOUR upper/inner studs and you need 8 upper studs, so you'd need to purchase two of those kits!
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Andy T.
"What is Glutamodo, Horror of Toyko, besides total, fiendish, quality-a-you brain!" |
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k9hdlr
Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2017
Posts: 10
Location: So Cal
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:38 am Post subject: Re: Long Studs and Valve Adjustment, (Stud Kit?) |
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| glutamodo wrote: |
Well, if that's all you can find I guess you have to make do, but I never liked that fact that those are too short, but I said that above...
also: it helps that I now have an extra set of correct ones sitting here.
Keep in mind, a DP kit only has FOUR upper/inner studs and you need 8 upper studs, so you'd need to purchase two of those kits! |
Would you be interested in selling a set of longer studs??? Although I still need to pull the valve cover and see if they're 8 or 10 mm |
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glutamodo
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26535
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:33 am Post subject: Re: Long Studs and Valve Adjustment, (Stud Kit?) |
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I might consider... but it took me a long time to come up with a set, and I actually was intending to use them, but that plan is kind of changing now. But a big problem is that I have no idea where they are stored at the moment... most of my stuff is all boxed up and put away right now.
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Andy T.
"What is Glutamodo, Horror of Toyko, besides total, fiendish, quality-a-you brain!" |
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Käfer2
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2019
Posts: 75
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: Long Studs and Valve Adjustment, (Stud Kit?) |
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Terrific thread!
I was almost able to classify three types of cylinder heads I have here.
One pair has the cast number 113 101 373"B", which is very similar to the "good" 113 101 373 heads mentioned in the thread.
Does someone know the difference? Are they as good as the good heads?
See sample pictures
Tim
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Mr. Mike
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Joined: January 30, 2015
Posts: 522
Location: Shoreline, WA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: Long Studs and Valve Adjustment, (Stud Kit?) |
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The 113 101 373 are for '65 1200cc square boss single port and the 113 101 373 B are the later '66 1300cc single port.
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Käfer2
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2019
Posts: 75
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: Long Studs and Valve Adjustment, (Stud Kit?) |
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| ok, thank you! |
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thomas.
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Joined: July 31, 2010
Posts: 1366
Location: South West (Pa.)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:31 am Post subject: Re: Long Studs and Valve Adjustment, (Stud Kit?) |
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Just a quick question. I've removed my engine from my '62 bug. The numbers on it are close to a '62. I took it out mainly to put in a thermostat system(stale air) & crankshaft seal., but it has snowballed from there to numerous other stuff.
I'm probably the last one in the country with the original long stud system. Anyway I'm not reusing those heads but my question was about these rocker arms in the photo. Do you think they need cleaned ? Just kidding. These are from a 1500 automatic equipped engine and would anyone know what the ratio of these would be. engine # H5406978 which looks like 1968. I'm looking to install on 1965 square boss heads. Does anyone see where I shouldn't do this or is this a direct fit ?BTW top photo is the 1500 semi auto engine , bottom photo is current 1200 40hp. Thanks in advance
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rcroane
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Joined: January 03, 2013
Posts: 2018
Location: Springfield, Virginia
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| Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Long Studs and Valve Adjustment, (Stud Kit?) |
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| thomas. wrote: |
Just a quick question. I've removed my engine from my '62 bug. The numbers on it are close to a '62. I took it out mainly to put in a thermostat system(stale air) & crankshaft seal., but it has snowballed from there to numerous other stuff.
I'm probably the last one in the country with the original long stud system. Anyway I'm not reusing those heads but my question was about these rocker arms in the photo. Do you think they need cleaned ? Just kidding. These are from a 1500 automatic equipped engine and would anyone know what the ratio of these would be. engine # H5406978 which looks like 1968. I'm looking to install on 1965 square boss heads. Does anyone see where I shouldn't do this or is this a direct fit ?BTW top photo is the 1500 semi auto engine , bottom photo is current 1200 40hp. Thanks in advance
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You're not alone....I'm still running long stud heads on my '65 (original engine). When it comes time to replace them, I've collected a couple of pairs of "F" heads which have short rocker studs and can use the original length case studs. If you use the newer '65 heads, you will need to locate a set of the longer case studs (someone please correct me if I'm using the wrong terminology here).
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thomas.
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Joined: July 31, 2010
Posts: 1366
Location: South West (Pa.)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:58 am Post subject: Re: Long Studs and Valve Adjustment, (Stud Kit?) |
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I'm using the top row cylinder head studs from the 1500 in the previous photo. I got the engine for free and using the parts. The 1500 studs are 8" long and 7.6" is needed. I've mocked it up and it looks to fit with some extra washers. Either that or I might cut it shorter.
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mukluk
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Joined: October 18, 2012
Posts: 7452
Location: Clyde, TX
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| Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:13 am Post subject: Re: Long Studs and Valve Adjustment, (Stud Kit?) |
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| thomas. wrote: |
| my question was about these rocker arms in the photo. These are from a 1500 automatic equipped engine and would anyone know what the ratio of these would be. |
If stock, they should be 1.1:1 ratio rockers. The easy way to tell the difference between the earlier 1:1 rockers and the later 1.1:1 rockers is the later variety has two cast-in lines as seen in the picture below; previous rockers lacked these lines.
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thomas.
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Joined: July 31, 2010
Posts: 1366
Location: South West (Pa.)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:40 am Post subject: Re: Long Studs and Valve Adjustment, (Stud Kit?) |
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Thanks for that Mukluk. That's what I wanted to hear. After checking for those marks that's what they are. It only took half a week to clean them.
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Käfer2
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Joined: December 30, 2019
Posts: 75
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| glutamodo wrote: |
Okay, here's the story on the 40HP heads. For whatever reason, when VW redesigned their engine in 1960, they decided to redo the heads so that the studs passed through the rocker "chamber" pass under the fins on the underside of the head, and screw into threads tapped just behind the combustion chamber. Not a good idea. The heat stress, added to the constant stress/vibration of the valvetrain, caused many of these to fail - the studs would snap off, or would pull out of their threads. VW monkeyed with this layout from 1961 models to the 1964s. They changed the size of the threads in the head and the shape of that rocker shaft, but the problems continued. Also, the heating differences of this style required that huge valve adjustment, as the clearances usually decreased from a cold engine to a hot one. Depending on what VW literature you read, they were either .008/.012 cold or .008/.008 cold.
Now, the earlier style 36HP heads, the rockers bolted onto studs that were screwed right into the rocker chamber. These didn't have that problem with breaking studs, or with wildly changing valve clearances, that were set to .006/.006. So when VW engines started having problems with the long studs, VW issued orders to retrofit them to the short studs. There were several companies that produced kits to do this. The most common one was one that drilled a large hole where the rocker fit, then a large slotted insert was screwed into the rocker chamber. The rockers were now secured with BOLTS, these are amercian bolts too, by the way, they have 1/2 inch head on them (although a 13mm fits OK) So if your engine has BOLTS holding down your rocker arms, you are converted to "short studs", and can set your valves to .006.
The other style fixit kits out required you drill out the rocker stud holes, then tap them for a giant "step stud" - these were metric kits, at least any that I've seen were, and have a M8x1.25 nut that holds the rockers on. The only way to tell for sure whether you have long studs or not on engines that have STUDS holding the rockers down is to look under the engine for where the rocker stud hold emerges on the under/backside of the head. If it ends there, short studs - .006 valve adjust. If it continues over to the combustion chambers side of the head - long studs.
In 1965, VW finally decided to fix all the problems with the 40HP heads , and designed a very strong, beefy head that is much like the 1300-1600 single port head. These have a square shaped embossment under where the rockers bolt to the head. I have these heads on the 1385cc 40HP in my 62 bug, and they are great! (but since they are beefier heads, they require longer upper studs than the other 40HP heads used) Now, after 1965, VW put out a "universal" replacement head that would fit the 1961-1964 engines, that looked more like the earlier heads, including a rounded emobssment under where the rockers bolt to the head, but had short studs. These usually have a casting part number that ends in "F".
As far as your engine in particular - your 1965 has the Long Studs? Well, there's very few VW's with their original engines out there anymore anyway. Most of the old "long stud" heads have been converted years ago, not many of the old ones remain. What I'd do, if you truly do have long studs, is do this test. Set your valves to .008/.008, COLD, of course. Then run the engine around for a while til it's nice and hot. Then come home and put on some cloth or leather gloves and a heavy long sleeve shirt to protect you from heat, and pop those valve covers off. Then check your valves and see how tight the clearances have become. IF they are are all about the same, and none are on zero clearance, then go with the 008/008 setting. If the exhausts are down around or past the zero clearance, go to .010, or .012.
As far as getting the kits installed - it's best to have the heads off the engine. Also, I don't think you can BUY the kits any more, although I have a couple of the US style ones laying around, enough to do like 4 or 5 heads I think. However, they require special size drill and tap to put in, and not many people have them around any more. I know I don't have the tools, although I do know of a retired machinist that has the tools for the kits I have.
-Andy
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"The other style fixit kits" -> https://www.ebay.de/itm/Reparaturbolzen-Zylinderko...4136861475 |
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glutamodo
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26535
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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ONE other style!
I have talked more about the different short stud repair kit styles in other threads in the past. I guess I never put any images into this thread before though.
Note, the .004" valve adjustment, which was what VW wanted before their retconned .006" short-stud revision around the start of model year 1972.
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Andy T.
"What is Glutamodo, Horror of Toyko, besides total, fiendish, quality-a-you brain!" |
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BulliBill
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Location: St Charles, MO
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:38 am Post subject: Re: Long Studs and Valve Adjustment, (Stud Kit?) |
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Great info in this thread! Thanks everyone!
I bought a '59 Double-Door Panel Bus in 2001 (nice condition original SWR paint too!) without a engine or rear bumper. Being produced at Hannover in June of '59 this Transporter would have been originally equipped with a "Bastard" 40hp engine (I've since found a complete early "Bastard" engine for the storage shelf). But I had a old mid-1961-ish 40hp engine on the shelf that was almost given to me back in the mid-'90's, I got it fired up on the garage floor, sounded sweet, so I popped that into the engine compartment. It is running one of those Garbe Lahmeyer vacuum advance distributors too. I have been driving that 6 volt Bus/engine combo for the past 22 years ("knock on wood") without a problem! It happens to have the long-rocker stud heads which I adjust to .008/.012 and I've so far been very happy with it. Damn thing runs like a Swiss watch! I hope that I never have to mess with it, but I am keeping my eye open for a spare 40hp engine or repair parts for the storage shelf just in case.
Feelin' lucky with long rocker studs!
"Long live long rocker studs!"
Bill Bowman
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theduck
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Posts: 257
Location: hesperia california
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2025 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Long Studs and Valve Adjustment, (Stud Kit?) |
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 Hello all. And finally the warm weather is here! Now to repair all my mistakes! I am asking does anyone know if there is a tool to remove the insert in the head for the rockers. I have a set of heads the have the inserts. However, on one head ,the inserts are not flushed on the rocker pedal. Is there a tool? Thx all |
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glutamodo
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26535
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2025 3:00 pm Post subject: Re: Long Studs and Valve Adjustment, (Stud Kit?) |
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If you mean the AMI ROC-A-STUD style threaded inserts as depicted above, That style does is supposed to not be flush with the round bosses.
I really quickly looked to see if such and example was in this thread. Not seeing one I looked in my archives. Only have a second here but I found this, not a very good picture but you can kind of see how how that style of insert sits.
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Andy T.
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