making sense of my starter (with picture) 84 westy

[greggarthurevans]

Looking at this picture, I am thinking the frayed braided wire is a relay heading out and not affecting the start.

Is the rusty metal-looking connection with the smaller wire coming from the key and the larger black wire from the battery? It seems odd that they would connect at the same place.

Having trouble with intermittent starting. Just getting 1 click most of the time, then perfect strong starts a few times. A new starter did not solve the problem. Of course, it worked when I got it back to the shop; they ran a test and said everything was perfect. Then I drove back to my house, where it doesn't like to start.
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Holy crap I want to get this van on the road.

[borninabus]

the frayed wire is the start wire from the ignition switch (50)
the other two wires attached to the big lug are battery constant (30)
the frayed wire needs to be cut back/de-oxidized and a new spade installed.

am i to understand that you took van to a shop with intermittent no-starts, they replaced your starter and left the wire looking like that? if so, find a better shop.
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88 Van WBX, A/T - 13 JSW TDI 6M/T - 2012 Touareg TDI Sport

[DanHoug]

if someone sold you a new starter, 'you bought a bag of hair, man'. that is not a new starter, or you've been dealing with this a long time. or the van was on the playa at Burning Man.

the red wire with black stripe comes from the key start contacts or a relay if someone has added that. it looks like it has overheated, very likely from the corroded terminal the spade slips onto. that wire is long enough, cut it back to good copper as borninabus says and crimp a proper 10 gauge terminal on the end. don't really need the white plastic insulator but put some heat shrink over the new terminal.
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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[Sodo]

When your starter is misbehaving is the ideal time for testing.

Next time it won't crank, try this.
Test #1:
If you have a wire with a spade connector, slide it onto the empty spade.
If you touch that wire to the 13mm nut, that is THE SAME as turning your key-switch to the "start" position.

So the engine will crank when you do that, so be ready.
For example, transmission in Neutral and key OFF (so the engine does not actually start).

Even better, since you're UNDER the van, is to have a helper in the driver-seat with a foot pressing the brake and the clutch depressed.

This test will "suggest" whether the problem is in your wire, or your key-switch.

Test #2

Clamp a vise grip onto the mounting nut for the starter.
I think it's a 15mm nut.
Clamp a jumper cable onto that vise grip.
Clamp the other end of the jumper cable to the negative post of the battery.

Try starting it with your key-switch. Or you can try cranking it with the jumper of test #1

=======

OK these are two tests.
There are lots of other tests,
but let us know what these two tests show.
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'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[greggarthurevans]

Thanks so much, all three of you.
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Holy crap I want to get this van on the road.

[uberaudi]

Since you'll probably be pulling the starter again to fix all that corrosion, you may want to look into the tdi starter upgrade, as well as the 'hot start' relay to get all that amperage off of your ignition switch. The later year Vanagons got a much thicker battery cable running from the battery to starter, where as the early years, like yours, uses the pencil thin cable. Add some corrosion in there and amperage levels increase even further.

Add a new starter ground while you're at, right Sodo?
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'84 Adventurewagen 1Z TDI, '08 Audi Avant Quattro 6spd BHW TDI

[greggarthurevans]

Thanks again for all your help. I cut back the red/black wire.

I think the pic of the connector accurately shows the party going on in there.

Does the wire at the fresh cut look ok? I'm worried about the black color.

Yes, I will add a relay.
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Holy crap I want to get this van on the road.

[Sodo]

Do you have a voltmeter?

Theres a test called "the Voltage drop test" that will tell you if you need (or don't need) to add a relay.
The difficult part of the "voltage drop test" is finding a repeatable "load" which allows you to measure a repeatable "Vdrop".

But that is if you are "real interested" in electricity.
Electricity has piqued my interest as of late..... seeing how ubiquitous the starting problems have become.
Starting problems on 40 year old Vanagons are making a lot of money for tow-truck drivers.
-----> and sadly reducing the "satisfaction" of vanagon ownership.

I am on a mission to "methodically solve Vanagon starting problems".
If possible.
I don't tolerate them.
I'm on starter problems like a fly on sh*t.
As you will see

===== heres the TL:DR =============

The problem with cutting off that spade connector is ----> the quality of the new connectors available.
You kinda need a "heavy-duty" spade for this task, equal in quality to the VW unit.
Definitely avoid those light-duty blue crimp-connectors from the FLAPS.
And the fancy ones on Amazon with heat-shrink ----->fabulous!
But they're usually discount connectors made of thin metal.
They loosen when attached to such a heavy wire like the start-signal wire.
If you use one of those, consider zip-tying the start-wire so it cannot move,
thus wiggling the connector and wearing it out over the years.

Don't use a nickel-plated "steel" connector on the copper starter spade.
Nickel is not compatible with the copper spade on your starter.
This spade connector is copper: https://a.co/d/iVow1T6
This example is just "Amazon" - I don't know where else to look for heavy duty (or High-temp) spade connector terminals.
If anyone knows where to get them, please post.
This starter-spade-connection is a significant element that MAY cause relay installation.

It does not need insulation because it's only HOT when holding the start on your key-switch. But it wouldn't hurt to add a heat-shrink covering + strain-relief of course.

IMHO the quality of this connector that you add, is more important than including a relay into the system. If you add a relay, your possibility of faults (over the following years) has actually increased, because you have significantly increased the number of outdoors connections.
Your relay connections must be assembled even "more reliably" for the system to be reliable over the years.

Basically a relay can be a blessing if you have a fault in your system.
It will work fabulously immediately, and for the short-term (the next few years?).
But if you can find and remove the fault in your system, the relay becomes "a wart to be removed".
Understood that the fault is not easy to find and remove.

^^This^^ from a guy who LIKES relays.
I consider a hard start relay to be an "elegant step backwards".
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'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[dobryan]

As someone already stated. No advice other than to find another shop to work on your bus. The mechanic that did your starter is an idiot to not notice and fix that wiring and connector. Should have done that before spending your money on a starter.
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Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2010 Subaru EJ25 (Vanaru) and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794

[greggarthurevans]

Thanks, Sodo:

I bought the connectors you linked and a cheap hydraulic crimper. I plan to cut back as far on the wire so it still can reach, clean everything up, and connect. Then I'll start testing.
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Holy crap I want to get this van on the road.

[uberaudi]

While the 'wart' may only be a temporary fix for wiring in poor shape, it also has the advantage of removing more or less all of the load from the ignition switch...IMO that's the best perk about it! That, and full voltage to the starter is always nice.
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'84 Adventurewagen 1Z TDI, '08 Audi Avant Quattro 6spd BHW TDI

[DanHoug]

[greggarthurevans]

Some of the reviews for the Amazon connector say thin or flimsy." I guess I will go to an appliance store that carries Supco.
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Holy crap I want to get this van on the road.

[DanHoug]

I took a look around the web searching for a high quality quick connect for the starter solenoid terminal. ideal would be made of beryllium copper but I couldn't find any 10-12ga 0.25" quick connects. next best is phosphor bronze... while slightly less conductive than brass, it is stronger and retains its springiness much better. to that end, the below female 1/4" 10-12ga quick connect fits the bill. it is an "open barrel" crimp which requires its own crimper but creates a better bond with the wire.

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/te-connectivity-amp-connectors/62428-3/1153781
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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[crazyvwvanman]

I ordered 2 sizes of the Amazon linked SUPCO that came today.
Highly attracted to a magnet, so probably not much if any copper.
I cut one into pieces, couldn't detect any yellow color.
Package looks like real SUPCO and markings on the ends look right too.

Mark

[DanHoug]

going down the rabbit hole....

looked thru my box of connectors. here's one marked "K.S", exact per the SUPCO link photo. it is 100% non-magnetic with a neodymium magnet.

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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[DanHoug]

aaaand.... one more. have a bulk pack of 100 Gardner Bender disconnects. G-B rebrands all sorts of things, probably don't manufacturer much, and it can be cheap stuff at times. this pack is many many years old. dunno if they are still packaging SUPCO.

again, 100% non-magnetic

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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[DanHoug]

one more caveat.... the terminals I've shown are NOT the T1112 high temp terminals. the genuine, Supco T1112 High Temp connector COULD be made of plated steel as is typical of other high temp appliance connectors. HOWEVER, it is not the appropriate material for the starter connection, and is incorrectly cited in the Amazon ad as being made of copper as per Mark's magnet test.

the Supco T1001 is a 0.25" 10-12 ga, tin plated brass connector and would be appropriate for the starter. I feel the TE phosphor bronze connector I detailed earlier is a better choice but not a deal breaker vs the Supco.

https://supco.com/web/supco_live/products/T1001.html
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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[crazyvwvanman]

Bought 2 wire sizes, T1111 and T1112, both fly to the round magnet in the photo.
Cut one apart, silver color through and through, no copper detected.

Mark

[DanHoug]