Schnorr

[SGKent]

where are people buying new high quality 8mm Schnorr washers for the CV joints -

Belmetric? https://belmetric.com/schnorr-washer-steel-vs-series-high-strength/?sku=WSH8VSBLK

Fastenal? https://www.fastenal.com/product/details/11544614

Grainger/Zoro? https://www.zoro.com/midwest-fastener-split-lock-w...402526471/

McMaster-Carr? https://www.mcmaster.com/products/safety-washers/?s=safety-washers
https://www.mcmaster.com/93501A030/

Black oxide, stainless, zinc, 8.8, 10.9 or ???
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"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[Abscate]

When my Schnor tells me he hasn’t eaten for three days…

“You should force yourself…”
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[borninabus]

i just bought the ones you linked from McMaster.
they are listed as made in germany and that's good enough for me.
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88 Van WBX, A/T - 13 JSW TDI 6M/T - 2012 Touareg TDI Sport

[SGKent]

[raygreenwood]

Yep....McMaster Carr is a great deal.

Ray

[SGKent]

order placed.
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"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[SGKent]

Order from McMaster Carr arrived. They sell the actual Schnorr washers made in Germany and not clones.

_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[Shonandb]

[SGKent]

[KTPhil]

Oh, I thought he was asking about this Two and a Half Men episode:
Gorp. Fnark. Schmegle.

Link

_________________
Current Fleet:
- '71 Fastback
- '69 Westfalia
Retired:
- '67 Beetle
- '65 Beetle (x2)
- '65 Bus
- '71 Squareback

[raygreenwood]

[SGKent]

well that sucks. Schnorr only recommends using their S and VS lock washers on up to 10.9 bolts. If one looks at the hex head bolts, which were upgraded for vanagons - and what is sold now for buses too, they are 12.9. The older bus six point allen head were 10.9 so the washers bit into them. The newer bolts are harder and the washers don't bite from what some people wrote. I'll have to look at the old 12.9 bolts that came out to see what the bolts look like, if there is any sign the washers bit into them.

The 12.9 hex head bolts seem to torque to 33 ft lbs, and Vanagons did not come with washers.

The 10.9 bolts allen head bolts torque to 25 ft lbs and came on buses. They used Schnoor washers.

I read a lot of material to get this information and there are too many pages to link. This may be a reason some people have problems getting bolts to stay tight and some do not - it may be a combination of things and not just torque.

The Schnoor page https://www.schnorr.com/serratedsafetywashers

have to think this one thru. Sounds like since the bus and Vanagon use the same flange that is now very NLA, the 12.9 bolts on either a bus or Vanagon would not take a washer, and they would torque to the greater torque. The spec sheet, I think RAtwell had, showed lightly oiled on the bolts, which means the oil the manufacturer uses on new bolts to keep them from rusting. If someone has the older allen 10.9 bolts then they use new schnorr washers (although schnoor does say in their literature they can be reused because they are harder than 10.9 bolts.) They make an S and a VS washer, the VS are thicker.

One question that comes to my mind now is will the steel on the boots work without the washer spreading the load, or will it work harden and fracture. Will it even hold the bolts without washers? I am pretty sure Vanagons used both a different CV and boot, but I would have to look again. There could be a difference between the bus and Vanagon steel. Lobro sells the boot kit with the 12.9 hex head, and it looks like with no washers. It is late and I am off to bed.

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"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[Abscate]

Both 10.9 and 12.9 will be tempered and quenched , the main difference will be carbon content. I’ll bet the hardness difference is 15-20% at best, so I would go 12.9 to 33 ftlbs torque, check torque after 500 miles with witness marks, and go back to not honking at EuroWankers to spite them.
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[SGKent]

[raygreenwood]

The standard Schnoor, ribbed Bellville washers that McMaster Carr stocks for 8mm are the "S" Variety and they are the same as stock. They are 0.031" thick (0.80mm).

The "VS" version are 0.047" (1.2mm) thick and are more than you want.

Both versions WILL bite into class 12.9 bolts...just not as deep and they do not have to bite deep. The vast majority of locking power is produced by the spring power.

The problem with the VS and even thicker designs of non-ribbed Bellville locking washers is that 8mm is borderline for enough cross section to prevent stretching during torque at the maximum required to flatten and lock the VS washers.

On bolts like class 8.8, in too many cases you will not be able to flatten (and therefore lock) an 8mm or smaller VS washer with a safe level of torque. In other cases you will actually snap the bolt before flattening a VS series washer.

Likewise, with an 8mm class 12.9, you will flatten and lock and "S" version but will also pretty much destroy it at max torque. It will come out flat with the spring feature absolutely yielded and the grooves mangled.

With class 12.9....the serratiosn just put faint marks on the underide of the bolt head. Not as noticable without close inspection as the marks they leave on class 10.9 and class 8.8.

If you have class 12.9 bolts, either the S or VS will work fine. If you have larger than 8mm bolts....I would use the VS as they will also have correspondingly higher torque.

All of this is why they reccomend 8mm and smaller for series "S" and 8mm and larger for series "VS".

8mm is a fuzzy area. Its going to matter two items as to whether you choose S or VS

1. If you have fine thread (1.0)....do NOT choose VS. If you have 1.25...you "can" choose VS...but...
2. If you have 8mm bolts that are lower than class 10.9...do NOT choose VS

8mm 1.25 and class 10.9 are the bare minimum for use of VS series....and there still may be stretching or yielding problems depending on the QUALITY and thread fit of the bolts you have.

Ray

[SGKent]

unfortunately Ray, Schnoor does not recommend VS above 10.9, OR S above 8.8. I posted their specs but I will do it again. Their webpage link was in the same post. Vanagon does not use them, and the kits do not provide them with the 12.9 bolts.

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"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[raygreenwood]

[SGKent]

Ray - since you have all their data, are these S or VS? Is there any reason not to use them on other things instead of standard wavy or split ring lock washers?

_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[RWK]

Las time I delt with this I found several things, bolt length is a bit short in the replacement bolts, as bolts are mfg. in standard lengths, usually a bit short from nominal and possibly OG bolts may have been special length, they are a thread or 2 from threading into flange all the way especially with the 2 hole plate washers, so not full thread engagement with flange, (check this before you assemble for good.)
Boot flange metal is low hardness, so similar situation as using a low hardness washer and torquing for a high hardness washer, I believe this was the reason for the 2 hole washers. Difficult as it is, I would also ensure flange to joint is dry and grease free, friction of bolt clamp is the only thing creating the drive.
The next longer mm SHCS can be purchased and carefully shortened to achieve full threads into flange and maybe 1 thread through.
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73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530

[raygreenwood]