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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23149
Location: Oklahoma City
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 Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2025 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Public land sell-off |
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| kamzcab86 wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
However, reacting to "reports" and "complaints".....and censoring by deleting....I can tell you....and I am betting probably for sure....that the vast majority of these reports and complaints come from one side of the political fence.
I perceive that It's usually people with thinner skin, less control over their "feelings" and are usually less well researched and prepared for a debate over what they probably were the first to state.
Lastly, if these debates that wax political were in an individual VW type forum like type 3 or bay bus....they should be squashed/locked....but NOT censoring or deleting posts.
However, the "general chat" and "off topic" forums.....are just that. It's off topic....and/or its people chatting. Many hundreds of threads are not even VW or automotive centric. |
Let me assure you that complaints come from BOTH sides of the political spectrum.
This very topic that you posted in is a repost from the same discussion that sparked in a Vanagon Forum PHOTO gallery thread, which was removed (the discussion, not the thread). The majority of us go on road trips to escape politics and other daily BS. Our photo threads act as the same. We want to view landscapes without having to read a bunch of political opinions (and other discussions).
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| If people get butt-hurt from a short stint of political conversation....especially if it actually has bearing on the subject at hand....let them block it or stay out of the the thread. |
If you can't keep your political thoughts to yourself in a photo or technical thread, stay out of the thread. |
Likewise....if you can't handle a few political thoughts no matter what kind of thread.....especially if the politics have bearing on the technical issue (for instance when the tech in question is being manipulated/controlled by politics and the government)....you are just as welcome to leave!
As a point of agreement...and wonder..... is that why/how would it get political in a photo thread? Have to look into that one...
Aside from that this thread.....right now.....IS.....a political thread. Public and government land (not the same thing but some of the same issues).....is 100% political because government and states are involved period.
There IS going to be some political posts...or there will be no discussion. There is no way at any of the links posted in this thread that there are NOT politics involved. The land sell off....sales of state or BLM land....are drenched in politics.
Ray |
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MsTaboo 
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 4550
Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2025 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: Public land sell-off |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| .....As a point of agreement...and wonder..... is that why/how would it get political in a photo thread? Have to look into that one... |
That stemmed originally from a joke I made in reply to a post within the Camp-site photo thread. I quipped that we had better watch out or the billionaires may someday be able to buy and gate our National Parks. Some people took it literally and I was accused of being hysterical (This was all before DOGE began cutting the funding to our parks and shutting down some of the National Monuments).
Well then along comes this vaguely written addition to the huge spending bill that MANDATES the sale of public lands with no oversight. Including the ability for foreign countries, corporations, and people to buy American lands to do with as they please. I posted (in the camp site photo thread) about what Mike Lee was up to. Wrong place, but wasn't really meant to be anything other than a heads up that my joke wasn't so far fetched.
While not really hysterical I did think the issue deserved to be brought to the attention of all. As I don't spend much time online except here (and I thought since a lot of us use public lands) that I would bring it up and share with the people I thought I had something in common with. So I started this thread with a few links to spread the word. A certain keyboard warrior has decided to attack me personally as if I was responsible for the content of the links!
And that's all there was to it. The thread can be locked for all I care.
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oldskewlsk8ter
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 349
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2025 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: Public land sell-off |
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Hasn't the land sale been struck from the bill?
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SCM
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011
Posts: 3379
Location: Bozeman MT
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2025 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: Public land sell-off |
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| oldskewlsk8ter wrote: |
| Hasn't the land sale been struck from the bill? |
There’s confusing reports about it. One dated June 24 said something about it being struck as it violates a senate rule of some sort but another dated 3 hours ago today says a handful of republicans plan to vote against that portion of the bill. No matter which side you’re on I think we can all agree news coverage is disappointing these days.
Surprisingly, Montana’s rep delegates were able to get us exempted on the first pass. A repub would never win another election in this state had they not.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23149
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2025 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Public land sell-off |
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| SCM wrote: |
| oldskewlsk8ter wrote: |
| Hasn't the land sale been struck from the bill? |
There’s confusing reports about it. One dated June 24 said something about it being struck as it violates a senate rule of some sort but another dated 3 hours ago today says a handful of republicans plan to vote against that portion of the bill. No matter which side you’re on I think we can all agree news coverage is disappointing these days.
Surprisingly, Montana’s rep delegates were able to get us exempted on the first pass. A repub would never win another election in this state had they not. |
Kind of.
It has not actually been struck from the bill. It was objected to by the senate parliamentarian....I think....from what I heard....because its language and content violate senate rules on what is allowed in a "reconciliation" bill which has very specific purpose and use (and has been heavily abuse by many other items in the past.
So, if it's properly re-wrtten....it could be left in. Some items that have already been agreed to be changed by those who originally wrote this part:
1. No sales to foreign nationals
2. All national forest service lands were removed from sales
3. Only 0.25 to 0.5% of any/all lands that the Bureau of land management controls would be eligible
4. All lands to be sold/auctioned should be within 5 miles of the border of a population center that the land could provide jobs for.
Most now estimate that only about 1 million acres fit this definition. That is about half of what was originally asked for and estimated....originally about 3200 square miles which is 2,048,000 acres.
The federal government owns about 640,000,000 acres.....or right at 1 MILLION SQUARE MILES.
So this whole thing is pretty small in the big picture.
The other things to think about. Too many people ....politicians...senators...congressman....saying hyperbolic crap like "we must save these treasures". As if, all land is part of a treasured national forest and as if they are l9oking to even sell off parts of a national forest.....rare preserve or protected species etc......all of that can be written into the law AND.....what each parcel of land can even be used for can be written into law.
And, in true federal EPA fashion....ain't no way that you will be building anything without the requisite environmental impact study.....which may find that you cannot build what you propose on X parcel of land.
Even though they need to get this damn bill passed....this level of debate is exactly what the senate's job is.
And, civil conversations like this....about politics....is exactly why I am against censoring political answers and conversations.
Ray |
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space
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2017
Posts: 812
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2025 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Public land sell-off |
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"once sold always gone"
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 17854
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2025 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: Public land sell-off |
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| SCM wrote: |
I disagree with Skills assessment suggesting that opening up more land for building will drop housing prices. |
I never said it was going to get cheap(er) or drop prices. But it will add to the inventory.
That is why I said the stipulations have to be put in place. I love money don't get me wrong...but these big companies buying up the starter homes is pure fucking evil.
and, as a side note.... nobody wants a 'starter home' these days....everyone wants (or thinks they deserve) their "dream home" right out of the gate, which may be 2-3-4 houses up from that starter home.
Same with employees... nobody wants to climb the ladder...everyone is looking for the easiest way to instant gratification.
| space wrote: |
| "once sold always gone" |
and that's true. but we can for sure afford to slice off some land.
between people living longer and immigration....legal or otherwise we are going to have to do something
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23149
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2025 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Public land sell-off |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| SCM wrote: |
I disagree with Skills assessment suggesting that opening up more land for building will drop housing prices. |
I never said it was going to get cheap(er) or drop prices. But it will add to the inventory.
That is why I said the stipulations have to be put in place. I love money don't get me wrong...but these big companies buying up the starter homes is pure fucking evil.
and, as a side note.... nobody wants a 'starter home' these days....everyone wants (or thinks they deserve) their "dream home" right out of the gate, which may be 2-3-4 houses up from that starter home.
Same with employees... nobody wants to climb the ladder...everyone is looking for the easiest way to instant gratification.
| space wrote: |
| "once sold always gone" |
and that's true. but we can for sure afford to slice off some land.
between people living longer and immigration....legal or otherwise we are going to have to do something |
Some good points here.
It's interesting, I have traveled most of my life and when I travel to other states, it's rarely for vacation and rarely just to the big tourist cities. When you look at house styles ranging from large farm frame houses that were built in the 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s....not because they were rich ...but because they had big families and crews working the land. Large older houses are one thing but not the norm.
But....when you see all of the now converted 750 to 1200 square foot row houses formerly factory housing ranging from Ohio all the way through Philly and Pittsburgh.....and the zillions of postwar through 1960s single story brick or siding 900 to 1500 square foot plain, ranch or mid century modern......that are still popular, in many places (less and less) are somewhat still affordable.....it does not take much reach of thought in the current environment to understand that the vast majority of people looking for a house do not NEED much over about 1200 square feet with a garage.
If you WANT more and can afford it....go for it!
What I see happening now is a similar but worse phase to the "McMansion" scourge that was happening back in the early 2000's.
At that point in time, all over the center part of the country for sure l, you had roving gangs of real estate developers posting signs on every corner saying "we buy ugly houses" or "cash paid fast for any house". The more worn out the neighborhood the better. Pull in, wipe the house off the lot and slap up a 2.5 story shit pile with a "dirt skirt" and build to within 36" of the property line. Sell to some other real estate investor.....but the point it you just drove up property values. Sit back and watch every 5th house sell for what eventually will be seen as peanuts with 2 years.
Within 3-4 years, most of what was a neighborhood of affordable bungalow houses is now a forest of 3000 square foot ugly boxes that are unaffordable to most.
That was then....
Now as Skills is pointing out.....and I see this all over the country, you see the same signs on the corners. But they are not running around tearing older or smaller houses down. These are private investment and private equity groups snapping up every single house they can. Some are not even repaired. Most are just cleaned and a few code items worked on and now they are sold at double the price.
And, we see rental conglomerates as well (less of those because even being a slum lord takes effort). About 2-3 years ago I saw groups from Phoenix through Dallas to Kansas city to Oklahoma City....who were snapping up houses mainly to sell into the air BNB market. Less of that now.
My point.....is that there are now with this latest trend, far less affordable houses available and very little new building going on.
So, add to this, in the past year or so I have a channel I watch that reviews (from the construction factory through install to going through finished houses).....the factory prefab and modular homes being built. Some are not so small. Some are modular and can be connected into good sized homes. There are some fabulous designs out there. There are tiny homes, medium normal (say 1200 sq feet) up to about 2500 in modular sections are the largest one I saw reviewed. Prices from $50k through $200k.
The problem is that too many places will not allow permits for these...even though they bolt down to a slab and meet code. California could totally benefit from these in the fire area.....and even though a fair few are built by companies in the Pacific NW.....you cannot sell them or buy them there. A lot of what can be bought is coming out of Canada.
Some of these would be outstanding up in Tennessee and the Carolinas after the storm damage.
So yeah....kill some red tape. Allow more small parcels of land. Allow more types of housing to be permitted (as long as it meets code).
About the "Once sold always gone"......I actually do not agree with that thought. In fact, in too many places the state and federal government have been acquiring millions of acres through inheritance tax laws and eminent domain for about a century.
Ray |
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MsTaboo
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 4550
Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2025 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: Public land sell-off |
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Why are starter homes harder to find?
https://todayshomeowner.com/blog/guides/are-big-companies-buying-up-single-family-homes/
For those unwilling to read you can scroll down to the closing thoughts.
Also, within Lees revised bill there is still no provision excluding foreign sales.
As of now it still says "from interested parties"
And the vague wording "any infrastructure and amenities to support local needs associated with housing" could mean shopping centers and other real estate developments.
Note there is no language about affordable housing.
Thanks to the push back from all sectors Lee has had to scale back his land grab, however it still stinks.
You can read it for yourself:
https://www.outdoorlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/FILE_1056-June252025Version.pdf
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EverettB
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EverettB
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23149
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2025 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Public land sell-off |
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Yep!
I was fine with the revised bill for the most part. The amount of land that was slated for sale was miniscule in the big picture, was being sold for the purported right reasons and the lands were not part of any national park system.
However, it needed to be taken out of the bill if for no other reason that this is the wrong "type" of bill for that task.
It's been a lot of peoples complaint for decades that it seems that anytime a specific and important bill is needing to be written and passed into law, the Washington minions start loading it up with earmarks and sub-projects that have nothing to do with the core of the bill and a lot of crap (and to be fair, it's not ALL crap) gets passed that should not....just because the bill needs to pass.
The land sale should be a seperate bill if for no other reason that they can debate it and really work out the details of what exact land gets sold and what it's allowed to be used for. Ray |
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zerotofifty
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2003
Posts: 3776
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2025 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Public land sell-off |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Yep!
I was fine with the revised bill for the most part. The amount of land that was slated for sale was miniscule in the big picture, was being sold for the purported right reasons and the lands were not part of any national park system.
However, it needed to be taken out of the bill if for no other reason that this is the wrong "type" of bill for that task.
It's been a lot of peoples complaint for decades that it seems that anytime a specific and important bill is needing to be written and passed into law, the Washington minions start loading it up with earmarks and sub-projects that have nothing to do with the core of the bill and a lot of crap (and to be fair, it's not ALL crap) gets passed that should not....just because the bill needs to pass.
The land sale should be a seperate bill if for no other reason that they can debate it and really work out the details of what exact land gets sold and what it's allowed to be used for. Ray |
Likewise every spending penny should be listed on our IRS tax forms so we all know exactly how much of our money goes to each expense.
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MsTaboo
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 4550
Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2025 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Public land sell-off |
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It goes to show that the voices of average Americans can make a difference!
Mike Lee's repeated attempts to squirrel different versions of the land sale by paring it down in size (but not in general form) did not fool the people who care about our natural heritage.
Keep in mind that there is already a method for government land sales, what was different about Mike Lee's plan was it mandated a massive sale with little to no oversight.
https://www.blm.gov/programs/lands-and-realty/sales-and-exchanges/federal-public-land-sales-faqs
And while the land sale portion of the bill was struck, there is still a huge giveaway to the oil, gas, and extraction industries.
https://westernpriorities.org/2025/06/statement-on...lic-lands/
It takes a commitment to read through and understand this stuff but it can be eye opening!
https://www.energy.senate.gov/services/files/1F39A9C0-C49E-4C7B-BBF8-CFDF451F747E
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The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 17854
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2025 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: Public land sell-off |
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| MsTaboo wrote: |
did not fool the people who care about our natural heritage.
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but it's cool to drive an 40 year old oil leaking vehicle into such places, so better preserve the heritage
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79540
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2025 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: Public land sell-off |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| MsTaboo wrote: |
did not fool the people who care about our natural heritage.
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but it's cool to drive an 40 year old oil leaking vehicle into such places, so better preserve the heritage |
But electric cars don't pollute, so ive been told.
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MsTaboo
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 4550
Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2025 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: Public land sell-off |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| MsTaboo wrote: |
did not fool the people who care about our natural heritage.
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but it's cool to drive an 40 year old oil leaking vehicle into such places, so better preserve the heritage |
Oh give me a break! So it's ok to clear cut, bulldoze, and build, but not drive to these lands? If you spent half a minute reading the opposition to this travesty you'll see that most of the pushback is from the people who live in the west (Connecticut-is that a state or a county?).
And besides, my Bostig/Zetec doesn't leak! 
| Glenn wrote: |
But electric cars don't pollute, so ive been told. |
Another classic example of not understanding point source and how concentrating power production allows pollution remediation at scale.
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The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
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zerotofifty
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2003
Posts: 3776
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2025 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: Public land sell-off |
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Many who do care about " natural heritage" are fine with a sale of public lands. By stated what you stated, you imply the people on the side other than yours does not care, and that is simply not true.
Furthermore this is not a "give away" to oil and gas industries, Saying so is an outright lie. This is a sale. furthermore those industries help keep your camper van on the road. And those industries do pay a lot in taxes, some of which does go to roads and the parks that you may drive on, and camp in.
Furthermore this is not a " massive sale" (nor give away) as this sale is a very tiny fraction of government owned land, it is a tiny sale.
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zerotofifty
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2003
Posts: 3776
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2025 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: Public land sell-off |
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| MsTaboo wrote: |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| MsTaboo wrote: |
did not fool the people who care about our natural heritage.
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but it's cool to drive an 40 year old oil leaking vehicle into such places, so better preserve the heritage |
Oh give me a break! So it's ok to clear cut, bulldoze, and build, but not drive to these lands? If you spent half a minute reading the opposition to this travesty you'll see that most of the pushback is from the people who live in the west (Connecticut-is that a state or a county?).
And besides, my Bostig/Zetec doesn't leak!
| Glenn wrote: |
But electric cars don't pollute, so ive been told. |
Another classic example of not understanding point source and how concentrating power production allows pollution remediation at scale. |
Bulldoze and clear cut of land is oft how solar power plants are set up. I see much of that in our once pristine desert lands, harming habitat, killing endangered animals and plants in mass.
An oil well is usually a very small foot print, a solar power plant is huge, and we will need a whole lot of them to go electric for transportation, in addition to huge copper mines, smelters, rare earth mines and processing to support electrification. So called green energy is hardly green. It is however environmentally destructive, expensive, and unreliable.
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Give Peace a Chance.
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79540
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2025 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: Public land sell-off |
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| MsTaboo wrote: |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| MsTaboo wrote: |
did not fool the people who care about our natural heritage.
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but it's cool to drive an 40 year old oil leaking vehicle into such places, so better preserve the heritage |
Oh give me a break! So it's ok to clear cut, bulldoze, and build, but not drive to these lands? If you spent half a minute reading the opposition to this travesty you'll see that most of the pushback is from the people who live in the west (Connecticut-is that a state or a county?).
And besides, my Bostig/Zetec doesn't leak!
| Glenn wrote: |
But electric cars don't pollute, so ive been told. |
Another classic example of not understanding point source and how concentrating power production allows pollution remediation at scale. |
Well, if we can transmit electric power over long distances, we can put the oil and coal plants in 3rd world countries.
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74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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