Clutch chatter & bowden tube

[aquifer]

I recently got my 67 together and test drove it. I noticed a little clutch chatter when taking off in first or reverse a couple times. Not bad, but a little. New clutch and pressure plate, new TO bearing, new cross shaft bushings. New cable.

I don’t recall what the recommended bowden tube sag range is, but I do remember that I adjusted it to near the deep end of the recommendation.

Will too much sag cause chatter? Or is it more likely that I need more sag?

I appreciate the advice.
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Parts needed:
Front & rear NOS or used OEM door panels for a '67 in the original Gazelle color (dark tan/light brown).
Also looking for used white headliner pieces, both perforated and non-perforated.

[MrGoodtunes]

(1) What's the condition of your front trans mount?
(2) How solid are the welds holding clutch cable tube in place?

[aquifer]

[runamoc]

I have found that clutch 'chatter' comes from a loose front mount.
_________________
Daily driver: '69 Baja owned 45 yrs - Plan B: '72 Ghia
Yard Art: 2 Sandrails
Outback: '69 Ghia - '68,'69,'70,'72 Beetle - '84 Scirocco, GTI - Pair of '02 Golfs- '80 Rabbit Diesel
VW Wiring = It's just wires

[mukluk]

In addition to the loose trans mounts mentioned, clutch chatter can also be caused by grease/oil contamination of the disc, uneven spring pressure of the pressure plate, bent/uneven fingers on the clutch fork, glazing of the friction surfaces, or excess runout or tolerance stacking of the flywheel and clutch parts.

Typically incorrect bowden tube sag will result either in excessive cable drag/pedal effort (too much sag), or poor clutch feel (too little sag).
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1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga"

[aquifer]

OP here, returning to report that the chatter has been eliminated.

My bowden tube had too much sag. I removed the tube and compared the length to the original one. I also measured the depth of the end that goes over the steel chassis tube so I could accurately compare the new tube’s useable length to the original one. I removed shims to make the sag exactly the same as the original one. The sag is much closer to the minimum recommendation now, vs the maximum previously.

To clarify, I had installed new front and rear mounts, but I did double check that everything was tight based on the suggestion above. All was good, so I focused on the bowden tube.
_________________
Parts needed:
Front & rear NOS or used OEM door panels for a '67 in the original Gazelle color (dark tan/light brown).
Also looking for used white headliner pieces, both perforated and non-perforated.

[aquifer]

OP back to say I was wrong. The chatter returned after a short time.

Here is a summary of what I've done so you don't have to read the posts above. The transmission was rebuilt recently so when I reinstalled it, I replaced everything that is replaceable.

1. All three transmission mounts are new and tight.
2. Input shaft seal was new with the rebuild
3. New throwout bearing
4. New cross shaft & bushings (the original rubber and plastic bushings that the 67 came with were completely shot).
5. The cross shaft / TO bearing is perfectly centered. The old one was off center due to shaft bushing wear, so I double checked the new one to make sure it was ok.
6. New clutch disc and pressure plate
7. New flywheel because the old flywheel had grooves and had obviously been hot so I was concerned about warpage.
8. New crankshaft seal.
9. I checked crankshaft end play, which was fine. Engine had been rebuilt sometime prior to my ownership.
10. I was careful about the flywheel and pressure plate torque during assembly.
11. I checked the clutch cable tube inside the tunnel because on another beetle I once had to cut a hole in the tunnel to weld a broken bracket. I reached in when I replaced the shifter bushing on this car and tried to move the tube, but it seemed solid. Also, the clutch pedal adjustment is fine, which was a symptom on the other car, it seemed like the clutch couldn't be properly adjusted because it was just moving the tube up and down inside the tunnel. That car was also making a scraping sound in the tunnel when pushing the clutch. None of that is the case on this car, so I don't think it's the tube, but I suppose anything is possible.

Another possibly important point: I don't recall the clutch chatter being present when I first got the car, but I didn't drive it very much because the transmission needed a rebuild. That leads me to believe that something I did was wrong, or something came loose, or is misaligned somehow.

Anyway, yesterday I closed the garage doors and turned off the radio to make it quiet. As I pushed and released the clutch pedal, I heard kind of an extra click/clunk sound back there. If I didn't know better, I would say that the pressure plate is loose and the pressure plate itself is moving. I'm sure that's not what the sound is, but that was what I thought of. I can kind of hear the clutch operate, but then there's this little extra click/clunk as the pedal is fully released.

So my question is, what is the likely culprit? Should I have used blue loctite on the pressure plate bolts? Or the gland nut for that matter? One regret I have is that I bought a cheaper flywheel and a cheap clutch disc and pressure plate kit from Parts Geek. The clutch kit was Sach's, so I thought it would be fine, but I later saw that Sach's makes a more expensive kit which I probably should have bought.

Did I choose unwisely when I bought the flywheel and clutch kit? Maybe Sach's isn't the way to go anymore?

Any advice is appreciated. I know I'll end up pulling the motor to take a first hand look, but I'm not excited about that (yet). Still trying to wrap my head around what could be wrong in there.

Thanks again!
_________________
Parts needed:
Front & rear NOS or used OEM door panels for a '67 in the original Gazelle color (dark tan/light brown).
Also looking for used white headliner pieces, both perforated and non-perforated.

[halfassleatherworks]

not knowing how you drive, if you linger to long letting the clutch out " riding the clutch " you can heat it up enough to cause it to chatter also to low of a RPM.

[Bobs67vwagen]

Since you have pretty much exhausted all the other likely causes my guess would be bad clutch disc or pressure plate. Was your disc the solid one or the one with the springs in it?.since you are pulling the engine you will soon get a look at these to see if it's anything obvious. Bob

[MrGoodtunes]

[Bub]

The question is can you 'feel' anything that doesn't seem right in the clutch pedal? Vibration?
Also, does the clutch work smoothly anyway? Does it give a little 'shudder' when releasing?
Is the chatter mostly just noise or what other sense do you have about it?

If you can 'feel' the chatter through the pedal it's going to likely originate inside the bellhousing. Could be just a funky throwout bearing, even if it's new. It could be a loose rivet on the clutch disc or any random thing- you may never actually find the exact problem.

If there's any body/chassis vibration working the clutch then start with making sure the cable is good, not stretching or frayed. Bowden tube is a big one here also. IF those seem fine you'll end up with the engine out to go any further. Give the steel clutch tube a good evaluation- if it has even started thinking about having any weak welds or it isn't FIRMLY in place at both ends...it'll cause problems like this.
I've had little issues like this and sometimes just R&R'ing the clutch parts somehow fixes it. Sometimes you find clues to what happened- some tiny thing like a washer or pebble getting in tere can do it.
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[VW_Jimbo]

Did you grease the cable up as you inserted it into the tube? I normally grab a few fingers full of grease. Lube the end up and get it into the tube. Then push the cable in with one hand as I grease the cable up with the other one.

It has to be greased as it goes in with thick grease like Sticky Red or Axle bearing grease.

If it is dry in the tube it will bid up and exhibit the symptoms you have written.

Also check the throw out arm for any obstructions. I had a customer who installed an accelerator cable and in the process looped it around the clutch cable. Made for an odd feel at the pedal on both of them!
_________________
Jimbo

There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

[runamoc]

[VW_Jimbo]

[runamoc]

[VW_Jimbo]

[runamoc]