Syncro: questions about bearing-like noises

[edbee]

Hi,
I have a '91 syncro. The transaxle and front diff were rebuilt by AA sometime around 2011 but I have only put maybe 30,000 miles on it since then. The vehicle is used primarily for summer trips. After running it for about 1000 miles I refilled the transaxle with Swepco 210.

Recently I noticed 2 new noises. First sounds like a wheel bearing noise (noticed this one late last summer before cancelling insurance for winter, seems to be getting worse as time goes on): seems to be present anytime vehicle is moving, engine running or not. It doesn't change when turning or braking and I can't hear anything with a stethoscope with all 4 wheels jacked up and listening at wheel bearing housings. So, I don't think it is a wheel bearing even though it sounds similar to wheel bearing noise. (front and rear wheel bearings were also new about 30,000 miles ago). Seems like it is something that moves at wheel speed: front diff maybe, output shaft(s) of transaxle (either where power goes out to rear CV shafts or where power goes to driveshaft to front diff)? Any suggestions on a likely culprit?

The other noise I just noticed is a soft whirring noise I can hear at idle when the clutch is out. When I push the clutch the noise goes away. You can hear the noise in this video:

Link
Any suggestions on what is likely responsible for that noise? I think this noise is relatively new.

I wanted to check the transaxle drain plug magnet for metallic debris and read that if I parked the van on a steep incline facing downhill (such that the floor was at at least a 13 degree angle) I could pull the drain plug without oil coming out. The plan was to pull the plug and photograph the metallic bits stuck to the magnet. That didn't go exactly according to plan as when I opened the plug oil started pouring out. I was able to stop it with my finger but taking a good photo of the plug/magnet with oily hands while laying under the vehicle with my finger acting as the drain plug was a bit challenging

Sorry the photo isn't well focused but the debris was all very fine particles that seemed to almost soak into the cloth I used to clean the drain plug before putting it back in. I think I lost maybe a cup of oil.

We are supposed to leave for a short westy trip in a few days and given the lack of chunks of metal on the drain plug magnet, I am inclined to go (can't change trip dates, would have to switch to tent camping if we left westy home). Hopefully I won't regret my decision.
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1991 Syncro Westfalia - Bostig Zetec
1989 Syncro Doka - Volvo powered
other misc vehicles including a '46 M16 1.5 ton truck (Studebaker)

[Ceckert64]

The clutch in/out noise that comes and goes is the mainshaft bearing. I’ve had a lot of issues with it on my cars and that’s the exact symptom.

It’s extremely bad on mine but it shows it well. The bearing had a 1/32-1/16 inch of play when I pulled it.
Link

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1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Yellow Tin Top Westfalia -Sold
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop EJ22 swap
“Rome” 91 Syncro

[edbee]

[MarkWard]

How short a trip? Being a syncro, I’d want to do some more investigating. Why? Because the parts are rare and expensive when you find them.

Sounds are indications of something not being happy. We had to cut a trip short because 4th gear was sticking engaged. No noise, but knew something was wrong. Decided to turn around. The logic was the closer to home, the smaller the logistics problem.

A short trip say 2 tanks isn’t likely going to add much to the damage. If the wheel’s aren’t rocking and the noise isn’t getting worse, you’re probably fine. Turn around if it gets way worse. Fingers crossed for you. That’s a bigger Christmas tree than I’d like to see. Maybe change the fluid and check when you return.

[Sodo]

I had trouble, lots, with 10-20,000 mile gearbox rebuilds back in 2012.

Thanks for reporting that oil still comes out at 13° nose-down.
Another guy reported that oil came out at 14.5° in a 2wd.
It helps a lot to get feedback on tips.

Maybe you have to "wait a bit" for the oil to flow forward ????
Maybe need a carrot or something (or a 1" rubber plug) to quickly plug the hole, so you only lose a little.
I was hoping there would be more discussion to refine the tip, but it didn't come so you're 'the guy'.

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Is that magnet afro just 1000 miles since the last oil change?
I suppose yes,,,, since you wanted to check the magnet without draining the oil.

30,000 interval is much too long.
Don't wait 30,000 miles to change gear oil on a rebuilt.
Rebuilts can have a LOT of really old parts re-used, and you could un-knowingly be driving thousands of miles with a toxic wasted dump circulating inside your gearbox, further reducing the possible lifetime.

That's an awful lot of metal to see after only 1,000 miles.
That looks like a 15,000, or even 30,000 mile afro.
That volume suggests a bearing is coming apart fast.
Or there was a lot of metal still in the gearbox that didn't drain out last time.

But noise suggests that anyway, and the magnet confirms it.

Driving that trans is ruining parts that (perhaps) could be re-used in the next (better?) rebuild.

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Anyway I think you got your answer..... a bearing or something is shedding steel fast.

Is the oil black already? Or is it just dark blue Swepco?
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'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[edbee]