Yikes! I bought a '74 Super!!

[vamram]

Started the rings break-in today. Car felt good. Only the miles will tell. Here is is idling after 25 miles up and down Arlington streets and hills w/a bit of highway thrown in.


Link


Sure looks nice!!

_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...we hardly knew ye. Sold 2025 for peanuts.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[67rustavenger]

The fresh engine sounds great.
Nicely done sir!

Enjoy the fruits of your labor.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!

There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!
2003 Astrovan? GFYS again, Xevin!
Don't let your bad ideas remain, ideas!

[vamram]

Thanks Rust! I'll update as the break-in progresses.
_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...we hardly knew ye. Sold 2025 for peanuts.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[Rome]

Good work with the engine assembly, installation and start-up. I hope it exceeds your anticipations as to performance, reliability and longevity!

[vamram]

Thanks Rome. But I parked it again, to replace the oil cooler. It's still running hot after not long or hard runs, oil temps going over 230 on a 30 mile run. And that's w/a 140 main and 65 idle jet in my 34-3. And it's not fuel starvation this time, carb is full and clean.

So...wish I could do this w/out dropping the motor again. But what's a bigger hassle? Removing the decklid and its hinges as one? W/out the decklid I can probably reach all the nuts required to remove the shroud. But is there enough clearance even w/out the lid and hinges on to pull the shroud up enough...?
_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...we hardly knew ye. Sold 2025 for peanuts.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[vamram]

Well, I answered my own question. No way there's enough clearance to R&R the oil cooler w/the motor in the car. So I dropped it, had to remove the header (there go the last of my dual heat-riser seals) and the front engine tin....and there's still not enough clearance for the cooler to get free of the top two mounting studs because the cooler hits the bell housing. So it looks like I have to remove the base of the cooler as well...which also appears to require removing the intake manifold, the 3-4 tin and possibly even the 3-4 head to get the nuts underneath the base.

I have to admit: I'm getting very tired of the school of hard knocks.

This weekend, if the weather stays not blistering hot, I'm driving the '73 300+miles to upstate NY. I'm actually thinking that I'm pushing my luck doing so.
_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...we hardly knew ye. Sold 2025 for peanuts.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[vamram]

Soldiered on, what else is there to do??

I improvised a tool by heating up this cheap 13mm box end wrench then bending in the vise and trimming it to fit the underside nuts of the oil cooler stand.

And it worked!! I had to drop the engine and remove it from under the car, but I was able to get the nuts off w/out removing the intake, cylinder tins or 3-4 head. What a f*g relief!!

And it's back on and the engine mostly back in the car. Tomorrow I reinstall the header and cross my fingers.

If this doesn't solve the hot running problem...I give up on this motor.
_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...we hardly knew ye. Sold 2025 for peanuts.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[vamram]

Header installed, took it on a 21+ mile drive up hills and highway, stop and go city driving. Damn thing starts on a dime and has great torque, pulls really nicely in all gears. I'm running it w/a 140 main and 65 idle because I do not want a replay of the fuel starvation killer problem I had last November on the road.

But the damn oil temps, on a mild day, were close to 220*. For reference, my '73 Super 1600dp will *never* go above 180* on the same exact drive. The rear apron was so hot I dropped the phone when I accidentally touched it. You'll see it in the video. Maybe it's time to remove the thunderbird header and install a stock muffler, which I have in my stash. Less direct contact w/the apron at least. Other than that, I don't know what else to do w/this motor.


Link


Once hot, it also has a miss every 10 seconds or so of idling. And I confirmed the t-stat is working - fully open at the end of the drive.

_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...we hardly knew ye. Sold 2025 for peanuts.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[67rustavenger]

220°F is ok. I'd begin to worry at 235°f. All you're doing is boiling off the built up condensation in the crankcase when you hit 220°F.

Careful, things do get hot on internal combustion engines, as you have found out today.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!

There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!
2003 Astrovan? GFYS again, Xevin!
Don't let your bad ideas remain, ideas!

[vamram]

[Tim Donahoe]

Victor, I'm assuming you're still running 5w30.

Your thermostat is opening all the way, it seems, but how did you adjust it in relation to your flaps? Let me know your procedure.

Also, the valves that open to allow your oil to get to your cooler? Hopefully, your oil relief valves are the stock kind, and are opening and closing unhindered. Those new Empi oil relief valves suck, big time. Especially the ones with the slot in them.

Tim
_________________
Let's do the Time Warp again!

Richard O'Brien

[vamram]

Tim, this motor is still in the break-in stage. It had about 2k+ miles before it failed last November (see above). Before that, I confirmed both oil relief pistons were not stuck. On the advice of a more knowledgeable friend, I replaced one of the pistons with a slotted one, keeping the original springs because I'd read the empi ones were too stiff. I drove this car in the old motor for 4 years. It had issues requiring the rebuild - bad main thrust bearing, low and uneven psi across cylinders and had started burning oil. When I took off the heads I discovered they had cracks at the plug holes. but overheating wasn't one.

Anyway, a friend recommended doing a compression check - perhaps it's too high?
_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...we hardly knew ye. Sold 2025 for peanuts.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[Tim Donahoe]

Can't remember where I learned it, and my memory might be off on the subject, but those slotted oil relief valves were only usd on the 1500 engines. Somewhere on here (The Samba) in a thread, there was mention of the slotted valves not working properly, and causing overheating issues.

I may be wrong, but since you've tried so many other avenues, you might just see if you can find a stock--non-slotted--relief valve (the correct size for the correct orifice) and install it.

Also, when I adjust the thermostat, after the engine is dead cold, I would loosen and remove the bolt at bottom of the thermostat ... but I'd also loosen the bracket bolt. Then, I'd push the thermostat all the way up with its bracket also going up until the thermostat and its bracket stopped. At this point, I'd tighten the thermostat bracket nut. Only then did I pull down the thermostat into its bracket slot and install the bolt to the bottom of it.

Bentley shows another way, but I found that doing it my way, brought the cold, compressed, thermostat to its highest point.

Perhaps you also do it my way, and if so, I'm out of ideas.

I do remember my oil clocked 220 F on a hundred-mile trip from Sacramento to Redding on a 101 F day, driving 67 mph, all highway miles. I was using too thick an oil back then (20w50), and would have had lower oil temps if I'd have been using 5w30 or 10w30.

So, I believe you're correct that 220 F is too hot for an 80F day.

Tim
_________________
Let's do the Time Warp again!

Richard O'Brien

[vamram]

Tim, I still have the original non-slotted piston for the relief valve. I swapped it to the slotted one as one of the troubleshooting steps. I use the same method as you for adjusting the thermostat. And I'm using 10w/30 dino oil at the moment. I use 5w/30 QS full synthetic on my '73, which I hope to move to on this one eventually. I tried before the november fiasco and was having issues w/the oil light coming on solid after a 20 mile trip.

Would high PSI per cylinder contribute to this? The are AA 88mm thick walled P&Cs w/Grant rings.
_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...we hardly knew ye. Sold 2025 for peanuts.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[vamram]

I've pretty much given up on this long block. I'm not a real engine builder and obviously got something way wrong w/this one. There's one other thing I'm going to try in a couple of weeks, I have some family travel until 9/13 so not much between now and then.

Unless by some miracle swapping out the carb does anything, I'm looking to buy a 1641 zero-mile long block from a local retired mechanic/engine builder I've bought original parts from for years. He's giving me a good price and I've seen some of his other work so am confident it will run as advertised. The only thing I may do w/that one is, if that's the route I go, swap in the CB 2280 camshaft and the spin-on oil pump. That's a nice cam shaft, I'm not letting it go to waste.
_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...we hardly knew ye. Sold 2025 for peanuts.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[Buggeee]

[vamram]

Ok, so I haven't given up, just yet. The Empi carb was leaking out of the volume screw fitting, guess it had gotten worn from the screw driver so wasn't sealing well. This contributed to a lean condition. Replaced it, runs much better w/the new chinesium replacement. Apron and engine compartment still get crazy hot though, and I was going to try one more thing before shelling out $$ for the replacement motor.

The Thunderbird header makes physical contact w/the apron - has ruined the paint from the heat - and the rear engine tin. Both get too hot to touch when I drive the car for any amount of time. I'm going to replace the TB w/a stock muffler to eliminate these contact points.

Unfortunately, the factory muffler's driver side heat riser tube interferes w/the spin-on oil filter. I'm thinking the only option I have is to cut the heat riser tube where it joins the muffler body, bend the tube out from the top and then cut, bend and weld a replacement section to avoid the small filter (Motor Craft 910s).

Options:

1. Keeping the T-Bird header: Nope, "Headed" to the classifieds.
2. Go to a single-riser intake and muffler: ABSOLUTE last resort
3. Replace the spin-on oil pump w/a stock pump: NOPE, not happening.
4. Use a shorter oil filter: Does such a thing exist??
5. Cut and weld - likely solution. 'Cept I'm not a great welder.

Unless i can find #4, I'm going to try #5. What recommendations do those who know have for the tubing to use to make that adjusted turn in the riser?

Thanks!
_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...we hardly knew ye. Sold 2025 for peanuts.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[heimlich]

The later mufflers moved the heat riser tube to the other side. That is what I use. Maybe you can cut and weld yours to be out of the way. If your carb freezes up you know why.

I was going to suggest stuffing some heat padding between the muffler and the apron for the thunder muffler but you said you are classifying it.
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[vamram]

[EDIT]SUCCESS!!! Sort of. No original mufflers were butchered for this installation. The WIX 51335 fits....if the muffler is not on. Have to loosen the muffler to get enough clearance to spin it off. Also the passenger-side heat riser pipe prevents me from installing the stovepipe carb pre-heat tin.

I'm going to go ahead and drive it like this for another 500 miles - assuming this resolves the hot running issue I was having. If it no longer runs hot and doesn't break down catastrophically or near there, I'll ditch the dual heat risers for a single heat riser setup and stock muffler. If it continues to run hot and otherwise deteriorate, then it's on to Plan C (this muffler swap was Plan B) - buy the 1641 long block I found locally and move on.
_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...we hardly knew ye. Sold 2025 for peanuts.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!

[vamram]

20+ mile spirited drive today. Car felt good, I can actually place and leave my hand on the apron now after the drive and the rear engine tin as well. Oil temps just over 200, but the rebuild-redo only has 270 miles on it. This weekend I'll take it on 100 mile highway run and X my fingers that it doesn't burn up. Next oil change at 500 miles.
_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...we hardly knew ye. Sold 2025 for peanuts.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!