| Author |
Message |
chrisflstf
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 4100
Location: San Diego
|
 Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2025 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
 |
|
When you swapped the wires 180, did you put 1 in 3, 3 in 1. 2 in 4 and 4 in 2, like that?
Is the distributor seated ALL the way down? No gap between it and the locking plate? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
viiking
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2013
Posts: 3219
Location: Sydney Australia
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2025 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| Tenknots wrote: |
So here's where I am. I took apart the carb and found a clogged accelerator pump - fixed that. This carb has all brand new needles, gaskets etc, |
Good. Now forget about any fuel issue. The car should kick or start with fuel or starter fluid.
The word (in proper English) carburettor comes from the chemical term as used in laboratories as a graduated cylinder i.e. a "burette". That is a "car- burette". Early inventors literally filled a burette with gasoline and poured it into the engine.
Using a squeeze bottle with some fuel in it will make a car run for a few seconds if all is well. It removes any issue with fuel delivery.
| Tenknots wrote: |
After cranking, the plugs are not wet. In fact, they are a little grey as you'd expect if it was running well. |
Well, you are not going to remove the grey colour that quickly.
| Tenknots wrote: |
It looks like the distributor can only go in one way based on how the drive meshes (slightly off-center). Even if it was in wrong by 180 degrees, by changing the wires 180 degrees as a test that should make a difference. |
Only if the wires have been correctly oriented. It'd be better to remove the drive dog and do it properly and then just continue with 1432 timing.
| Tenknots wrote: |
I can smell the evaporated starting fluid coming from the exhaust pipes.
|
Of course. The fuel is getting in via the valves, but it ain't burning before being ejected.
| Tenknots wrote: |
I am missing something. Maybe something stupid. The PO built the block, but I assembled everything else and took my time over winter. I don't think I made any glaring mistakes. I mean, it cranks great. What the hell? |
You still aren't sparking at the correct time. IMO.
Did you read and understand the Ashman40 quote about No1 and No3 valves all being closed at the same time at TDC?
Take a photo of the cap off at TDC and see if someone can see something amiss
| Tenknots wrote: |
I am missing something. Maybe something stupid. |
With due respect I think you are listening but not hearing. You have a spark timing issue. Yes compression may be an issue, but IMO unlikely to get some sort of "kick".
The simplest thing would be to get a known working standard distributor from someone and retest.
_________________
1968 1500 RHD Lotus White Beetle since birth. In the hospital for major surgery
1966 Lancia Flavia Pininfarina Coupe - in the waiting room
Discharged: 1983 Vanagon, 1974 1800 Microbus,1968 Low Light,1968 Type 3 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Blandyp
Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2025
Posts: 33
Location: England
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2025 1:08 am Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| Tenknots wrote: |
So here's where I am. I took apart the carb and found a clogged accelerator pump - fixed that. This carb has all brand new needles, gaskets etc,
The distributor gear was likely installed wrong by the PO. When I find TDC on # 1 (verified by pulling the valve cover and making sure both valves are closed), the rotor points to about 9 o'clock. It does not line up with the tiny notch on the case, which is around 3 o'clock. |
At TDC on # 1 (or slightly before, to be exact) that’s when the spark needs to go to #1. So what you need to do is loosen off the dizzy clamp and remove the dizzy cap and take the 4 plug wires off the cap. Right, make sure you’re at TDC on # 1. Now rotate the dizzy so that the rotor arm and the little notch on the outer are aligned. It doesn’t need to be exact, just pointing at the notch, not any other direction. OK, so on your car with your dizzy, #1 TDC is at 9 o clock. Put the cap back on. Connect the lead from #1 cylinder to the 9 o clock post on the cap. Next connect #4 lead to 12 o clock, 3 to 3 and 2 to 6 o’clock.
You can now set the static timing, precisely, then tighten the dizzy clamp. But it’ll probably fire up even before you set the static timing precisely.
Just to add, for the avoidance of mistakes, #1 is front right hand side cylinder where front means front of the car and not “closest to me as I face the engine”[/b]
_________________
Idling insignificantly
Last edited by Blandyp on Fri Aug 08, 2025 1:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
viiking
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2013
Posts: 3219
Location: Sydney Australia
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2025 1:17 am Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| Blandyp wrote: |
At TDC on # 1 (or slightly before, to be exact) that’s when the spark needs to go to #1. So what you need to do is loosen off the dizzy clamp and remove the dizzy cap and take the 4 plug wires off the cap. Right, make sure you’re at TDC on # 1. Now rotate the dizzy so that the rotor arm and the little notch on the outer are aligned. It doesn’t need to be exact, just pointing at the notch, not any other direction. OK, so on your car with your dizzy, #1 TDC is at 9 o clock. Put the cap back on. Connect the lead from #1 cylinder to the 9 o clock post on the cap. Next connect #4 lead to 12 o clock, 3 to 3 and 1 to 6. |
I think you mean 2 at 6 o’clock.
_________________
1968 1500 RHD Lotus White Beetle since birth. In the hospital for major surgery
1966 Lancia Flavia Pininfarina Coupe - in the waiting room
Discharged: 1983 Vanagon, 1974 1800 Microbus,1968 Low Light,1968 Type 3 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Blandyp
Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2025
Posts: 33
Location: England
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2025 1:35 am Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| viiking wrote: |
I think you mean 2 at 6 o’clock. |
Thanks. Typo corrected
_________________
Idling insignificantly |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
doug bugg
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2003
Posts: 369
Location: Minneapolis
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2025 4:22 am Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
_________________
"Knowledge is Good" - Faber College |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tenknots
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2024
Posts: 47
Location: NorCal
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2025 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
Lots of good information here - thanks!.
I have timed the distributor correctly using the #1 cylinder with both valves closed and the mark on the pulley at the seam. I'm pretty confident that part is right. Just for grins I moved the timing by about 90 degrees both ways in 10 degree increments and tried starting. Nothing. Just healthy cranking with no pops even with gas in the carb and starting fluid. One odd thing is that after pouring gas in the carb a few times and removing a plug, it was not wet. I would think after cranking for a while, pouring gas in and pumping the pedal the plugs would foul, but they don't.
I've ordered another distributor, this time one with points (no one around me is a bug fan and I don't mind having a spare) just in case this new one is somehow defective. I am wondering if the spark I see is just too weak. I have another coil I can use on the new distributor though the one I have is specific to the electronic ignition on the current distributor (3 ohm).
I rented a compression tester that I will use soon. It's 100 degrees here and even my garage is too hot to work in now. I did not assemble the block internals and I hope the PO didn't mess up something in there that could cause too little compression. I'll know soon enough. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Blandyp
Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2025
Posts: 33
Location: England
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2025 5:50 am Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| Tenknots wrote: |
Lots of good information here - thanks!.
I have timed the distributor correctly using the #1 cylinder with both valves closed and the mark on the pulley at the seam. I'm pretty confident that part is right.... One odd thing is that after pouring gas in the carb a few times and removing a plug, it was not wet. I would think after cranking for a while, pouring gas in and pumping the pedal the plugs would foul, but they don't.
I've ordered another distributor, this time one with points .just in case this new one is somehow defective...I am wondering if the spark I see is just too weak. I have another coil I can use on the new distributor though the one I have is specific to the electronic ignition on the current distributor (3 ohm).
I rented a compression tester that I will use soon. It's 100 degrees here and even my garage is too hot to work in now. I did not assemble the block internals and I hope the PO didn't mess up something in there that could cause too little compression. I'll know soon enough. |
It's an odd one. You've fixed the clogged carb pump, you've said a couple of times that the plugs show no signs of wetness, but you've also said that you can smell fuel from the exhaust - which is kind of odd. I mean if fuel is getting to the cylinders, and it's not firing, you'd expect it to absolutely reek of unburnt fuel and the plugs to be wet.
The timing is confirmed correct now, so it's either insufficient spark, or insufficient compression if the fuel's getting to the cylinders. You've also said that you feel there is compression from hand cranking the engine, I think?
So it's still a bit confusing - it doesn't fire, even with fast start spray direct into the carb, the carb is now spraying fuel down into the manifold, yet the plugs are dry, but also you smell fuel from the exhaust.
The timing is correct, you see plugs sparking when grounded to the case, there's compression when you turn the engine.
Have you changed the plugs? Have you taken off the air filter and put your hand over the top of the carb to feel if there's a vacuum created when you turn the engine? Is the rotor arm and dizzy cap pillars inside it in good order?
Is there a good seal for the inlet manifold at the cylinder heads and at the rubber junction parts where the two pipes go into one - it looks neat on the photo.
The idle fuel cut off solenoid thing, is that stuck / u/s?
Just musing out loud, so to speak. I'm kind of stuck, tiehr than to say trying a different dizzy is a decent plan.
Also unrelated, that air outlet on the fan housing on the LHS - it looks open, not sealed off, which is not ideal.
_________________
Idling insignificantly |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VW_Jimbo 
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 11225
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2025 7:50 am Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
You should start over. You missed something or assumed something.
Pull a spark plug wire off. I like pulling the #2 wire. Then grab a spare spark plug and stick it in the end. Take a pair of spark plug wire puller pliers (say that 5 times fast), (FOCUS), and grab the plug. Now get it held up against a ground point, like the case or intake manifold or something. Even an alligator clip wire will do it, but it has to be a ground and it has to be to the steel body of the spark plug.
Then get a helper to (after blocking the wheels, e brake on and car in neutral (double check it all)), have your helper try and start the engine. You meanwhile, are watching the plug end for a spark, WHILE keeping everything out of the way from the v-belt!
Got spark?
BTW that ignition module will not trigger the coil if the cranking voltage falls below 9.6vdc (at least on mine that is what it is). You can stick your DVOM leads to read the 15 side of the coil’s voltage during cranking to find out! But if you do the spark plug check and have spark then you do not have to check for voltage there!
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!  |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tenknots
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2024
Posts: 47
Location: NorCal
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2025 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| Blandyp wrote: |
| Tenknots wrote: |
Lots of good information here - thanks!.
I have timed the distributor correctly using the #1 cylinder with both valves closed and the mark on the pulley at the seam. I'm pretty confident that part is right.... One odd thing is that after pouring gas in the carb a few times and removing a plug, it was not wet. I would think after cranking for a while, pouring gas in and pumping the pedal the plugs would foul, but they don't.
I've ordered another distributor, this time one with points .just in case this new one is somehow defective...I am wondering if the spark I see is just too weak. I have another coil I can use on the new distributor though the one I have is specific to the electronic ignition on the current distributor (3 ohm).
I rented a compression tester that I will use soon. It's 100 degrees here and even my garage is too hot to work in now. I did not assemble the block internals and I hope the PO didn't mess up something in there that could cause too little compression. I'll know soon enough. |
It's an odd one. You've fixed the clogged carb pump, you've said a couple of times that the plugs show no signs of wetness, but you've also said that you can smell fuel from the exhaust - which is kind of odd. I mean if fuel is getting to the cylinders, and it's not firing, you'd expect it to absolutely reek of unburnt fuel and the plugs to be wet.
*I agree, I think the tailpipes might even be wet from the fuel and I should smell more. The new oil doesn't smell like gas and the level hasn't increased as I would expect if a lot of fuel was getting around the pistons. My first thought was that I had left a rag stuffed into the heads or tape across them as I was assembling it but that would be pretty obvious while putting it together. And I think I have pictures of almost every stage.
*The PO had the block machined and he assembled the crank and camshafts, and mated the block halves. I built all the rest of it with new parts. So far all of his other work on the car seems to be pretty good and I don't know if there is anything he could have done internal to cause this (wrong cams if compression is bad?)
The timing is confirmed correct now, so it's either insufficient spark, or insufficient compression if the fuel's getting to the cylinders. You've also said that you feel there is compression from hand cranking the engine, I think?
*Using a half-inch socket wrench on the crank pulley, it gets much harder to turn as a piston comes to TDC, which I would think means decent compression. I'll test with a compression tester once it's less than 100 degrees in my garage.
So it's still a bit confusing - it doesn't fire, even with fast start spray direct into the carb, the carb is now spraying fuel down into the manifold, yet the plugs are dry, but also you smell fuel from the exhaust.
The timing is correct, you see plugs sparking when grounded to the case, there's compression when you turn the engine.
Have you changed the plugs? Have you taken off the air filter and put your hand over the top of the carb to feel if there's a vacuum created when you turn the engine? Is the rotor arm and dizzy cap pillars inside it in good order?
Is there a good seal for the inlet manifold at the cylinder heads and at the rubber junction parts where the two pipes go into one - it looks neat on the photo.
The idle fuel cut off solenoid thing, is that stuck / u/s?
Just musing out loud, so to speak. I'm kind of stuck, tiehr than to say trying a different dizzy is a decent plan.
*The plugs are the correct part number and new and properly gapped. The plug wires didn't fit on the end of the plugs until I unscrewed the little smooth connector on them. But the wires snap on to the small threaded plug ends ok now (though not as tight as I'd expect) and I can see spark, though in the sunlight it's hard to tell how strong it is. Hence the new dizzy on the way.
*Rotor seems fine, dizzy is new. Coil is new. Wires are new. Rubber seals and clamps on manifold are new and it has all new manifold gaskets at the heads. I tested the idle fuel cut off solenoid out of the carb and it works as expected.
Also unrelated, that air outlet on the fan housing on the LHS - it looks open, not sealed off, which is not ideal. |
*I haven't installed the outlet hoses yet or the final tin at the rear in case I have to remove the engine.
*Thanks for your help. I'm not an experienced engine builder but I've wrenched on cars for a long time and I am puzzled and frustrated. At this point I am wondering if it's something I did (or didn't do) that is causing my problem. I'll report back when I have more results. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bsairhead
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 4507
Location: viroqua wi.
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2025 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| I looked at your pictures. Fuel cut off solenoid works, right? I sure can see the wire connection. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pondoras box
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2004
Posts: 1675
Location: Eerie PA
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2025 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| bsairhead wrote: |
| I looked at your pictures. Fuel cut off solenoid works, right? I sure can see the wire connection. |
This is a very easy test to do. I thought he said he already verified this to be in working order though.
_________________
Looking for anything from Hal Casey Motors out of Hamburg New York, from license plate surrounds to matchbooks.
1961 23 Window (Bobo)
1965 11 Window (Zelda). https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=563183
1965 13 Window (Lucas)
1957 Oval ragtop
1960 hardtop
1964 hardtop
1965 hardtop
Another 65 hardtop
1973 standard bug
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=804912
1988 Cabriolet VR6 conversion |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tenknots
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2024
Posts: 47
Location: NorCal
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2025 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| Yep, verified the plunger works when 12v hits it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bomberbob
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2015
Posts: 761
Location: Iowa
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2025 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
This is all predicated on having the cam, and the crank gears meshed in the proper orientation. If the PO has that off, then valves are opening and closing before or after the piston is up (depending on the mistake), no idea what a spark thrown into a situation like this is going to be able to do. I would still like to see compression numbers, that would tell a lot.
_________________
1968 Beetle torn apart again
1990 Jetta GLI megasquirted, burning E85 (currently in storage)
2004 Jetta turbo GLI
Marion, Iowa |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pondoras box
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2004
Posts: 1675
Location: Eerie PA
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2025 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
I would still think he would get a backfire or out through the exhaust.
_________________
Looking for anything from Hal Casey Motors out of Hamburg New York, from license plate surrounds to matchbooks.
1961 23 Window (Bobo)
1965 11 Window (Zelda). https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=563183
1965 13 Window (Lucas)
1957 Oval ragtop
1960 hardtop
1964 hardtop
1965 hardtop
Another 65 hardtop
1973 standard bug
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=804912
1988 Cabriolet VR6 conversion |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Blandyp
Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2025
Posts: 33
Location: England
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2025 8:19 am Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| bomberbob wrote: |
| This is all predicated on having the cam, and the crank gears meshed in the proper orientation. If the PO has that off, then valves are opening and closing before or after the piston is up…. |
From what’s been reported they seem to be meshed correctly, in that at #1 TDC the valves on #1 are shut and the flywheel notch lines up with the join in the engine case, as I’ve read things, but it’s worth double checking, you’re right.
_________________
Idling insignificantly |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tenknots
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2024
Posts: 47
Location: NorCal
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2025 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
Update:
I tried a brand new dizzy - no change.
Compression test using a cheap "loaner" tool from autozone showed all cylinders between 110-120 psi (number 4 was closer to 106).This was obviously a cold engine with all plugs removed. The engine has never been run and all internal parts are new (rings, valves. etc).
Verified again cylinder 1 at TDC by putting a pencil in and watching where it stopped AND by removing valve cover and checking that both valves are closed with .006 play, when the groove mark on the pulley is at the seam in the engine block. At this position, the rotor points around four o'clock and very close to the hash mark on the new dizzy body.
Here's the kicker. When the engine is cranking, air is being forced OUT of the carb. I can feel it pushing my hand. There is no vacuum and little if no air is coming from the exhaust..
How is this happening? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
viiking
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2013
Posts: 3219
Location: Sydney Australia
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2025 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
You sure it's not running backwards?
_________________
1968 1500 RHD Lotus White Beetle since birth. In the hospital for major surgery
1966 Lancia Flavia Pininfarina Coupe - in the waiting room
Discharged: 1983 Vanagon, 1974 1800 Microbus,1968 Low Light,1968 Type 3 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chrisflstf
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 4100
Location: San Diego
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2025 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
Can you pull the valve covers and have someone crank it over while you watch the rockers for proper movement?
Does the new distributor have points or a module? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
viiking
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2013
Posts: 3219
Location: Sydney Australia
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2025 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| viiking wrote: |
| You sure it's not running backwards? |
You sure it's not (edit:) trying to running backwards?
I don't think the Bendix drive would engage if the starter was running backwards but if the compression stroke is relieving through the inlet valve instead of the exhaust valve (hence giving the symptom of air coming out the carburettor) then it seems the valve sequencing is reversed. How?
Is it possible that the head of one of the inlet valves has broken off and dropped off the head?
_________________
1968 1500 RHD Lotus White Beetle since birth. In the hospital for major surgery
1966 Lancia Flavia Pininfarina Coupe - in the waiting room
Discharged: 1983 Vanagon, 1974 1800 Microbus,1968 Low Light,1968 Type 3 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
