| Author |
Message |
Blandyp
Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2025
Posts: 48
Location: England
|
 Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 10:03 am Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
 |
|
This picture shows where the dizzy drive gear should be when #1 is TDC ready to fire
_________________
Idling insignificantly |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Tenknots
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2024
Posts: 56
Location: NorCal
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 10:12 am Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
This is all really good information, thanks to everyone who has chimed in. It looks like I can verify if the cam is in right without a tear down, which I will try to do today.
It looks like it would be too much of a coincidence to install the camshaft exactly 180 degrees off and if it was off by a tooth or two I would not be able to set valves.
And yet... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Blandyp
Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2025
Posts: 48
Location: England
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 10:33 am Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| Tenknots wrote: |
This is all really good information, thanks to everyone who has chimed in. It looks like I can verify if the cam is in right without a tear down, which I will try to do today.
It looks like it would be too much of a coincidence to install the camshaft exactly 180 degrees off and if it was off by a tooth or two I would not be able to set valves.
And yet... |
I think maybe one tooth off you could still do the valves, based on an approximation that there are maybe 50 or 60 teeth on the camshaft gear, so each would be about 6 or 7 degrees of rotation , but more than that and you’d definitely not be able to do the valves at pulley indicated TDC until you got to it being about, well half the total teeth number misalignment (180 deg ish).
_________________
Idling insignificantly |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16766
Location: North Florida, USA
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 10:38 am Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
As suggested in the above thread, you can get a feel for cam to crank indexing by removing the oil pump (while engine is in the car) and look at the oil pump slot in the cam.
Borrowed an image from the above thread:
You can see form the above pic, when the crank is at TDC (woodruff key slot at 9-o'clock) AND the cam is oriented at the end of the compression stroke for cylinder #1 with the slot in the cam is at 45-deg as shown AND one of the 3 bolts at the end of the slot is at the 45-deg position. This only works for the 3-bolt/3-rivet cams (pre-70 cams).
You cannot see the dots on the edge of the gears thru the oil pump opening. Here is what you can see:
You can see the one bolt at the end of the slot. This should be where the dot is placed. For the cams that are riveted to the gear this can be assumed. For this type of cam which uses a bolt on gear it is important to assemble the cam correctly so the dot is at the end of the slot.
Note that for each 360deg of crank rotation the cam will only rotate 180deg. This means rotating the crank 360deg from the above pic so #3 is at TDC on its compression stroke and #1 being at the end of the exhaust stroke will result in the cam slot rotating 180deg and looking similar. The difference is the cam rivet/bolt at the end of the slot. It will be down at the 225-deg position instead of up at the 45-deg position. This is visible thru the oil pump opening in the case when using a 3-rivet/3-bolt cam shaft. In the 70's when VW went to the 4-rivet cam shaft it was no longer possible to identify the cam orientation. Here are the two types of cam shafts/gears:
Note how you can tell from the 3-rivet cam which rivet is the one with the dot. But with the 4-rivet cam, if you cannot see the dot you cannot tell if the cam-crank is properly oriented/indexed. You have no choice but to open the case to confirm. But if the crank is at TDC and the cam slot is no where close to 45deg you know it was installed incorrectly. At TDC the slot should always be at 45deg.
To confirm the gear alignment is not off by just one tooth... rotate the crank exactly 90-deg CW from TDC (if you have a degree pulley the 90ATDC (or 270BTDC) mark will line up with the case split) this will rotate the cam 45deg CCW and the slot in the cam should be exactly vertical with the bolt/rivet at 12-o'clock. If the slot is not perfectly vertical the cam-crank gears are off by one or more teeth and you will need to open the case to fix.
Edit: How to check if the cam was bolted to the cam gear correctly?
Orient the cam as shown above with the slot at 45deg. The cam should be at either at #1 TDC or #3 TDC. Check the valves for both cylinders. If #1 valves are closed (end of compression stroke) and #3 valves are in motion (end of exhaust stroke)... the cam is bolted to the gear correctly and at the end of the #1 compression stroke. If the cylinders are swapped, rotate the crank 360deg and it should now match.
But if it is clear the valves are in some other place in the 4-stroke cycle... the cam has been bolted to gear incorrectly or has been indexed incorrectly.
I mentioned earlier that the valve open/close transitions for each cylinder happen around the TDC or BDC positions. Sometimes a few degree before or after. It is not clear from your descriptions if the open/close is happening much further away from TDC/BDC?? Are the valves opening/closing around the 90BTDC/90ATDC points? This would be very bad. I would then suggest you remove the crank pulley to confirm the pulley markings are correct.
You are using the rotor position of the distributor as a criteria. Don't. The distributor or distributor drive gear can impact the rotor position. Just look at crank position and valve movement. Describe when the #1 valves open/close based on crank position (TDC, BDC and degrees before or after) and which stroke.
You mentioned at TDC the exhaust valve is OPEN. I ask WHEN did it START to open? Normally, the exhaust valve starts to open just before the piston is near BDC of the power stoke and remains OPEN until slightly past TDC at the start of the INTAKE stroke. So it is okay for the exhaust valve to be OPEN at TDC at the end of the compression stroke.
Honestly, at this point it does sound like the engine was assembled incorrectly. Has this engine EVER run?
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tenknots
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2024
Posts: 56
Location: NorCal
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| ashman40 wrote: |
As suggested in the above thread, you can get a feel for cam to crank indexing by removing the oil pump (while engine is in the car) and look at the oil pump slot in the cam.
Borrowed an image from the above thread:
You can see form the above pic, when the crank is at TDC (woodruff key slot at 9-o'clock) AND the cam is oriented at the end of the compression stroke for cylinder #1 with the slot in the cam is at 45-deg as shown AND one of the 3 bolts at the end of the slot is at the 45-deg position. This only works for the 3-bolt/3-rivet cams (pre-70 cams).
You cannot see the dots on the edge of the gears thru the oil pump opening. Here is what you can see:
You can see the one bolt at the end of the slot. This should be where the dot is placed. For the cams that are riveted to the gear this can be assumed. For this type of cam which uses a bolt on gear it is important to assemble the cam correctly so the dot is at the end of the slot.
Note that for each 360deg of crank rotation the cam will only rotate 180deg. This means rotating the crank 360deg from the above pic so #3 is at TDC on its compression stroke and #1 being at the end of the exhaust stroke will result in the cam slot rotating 180deg and looking similar. The difference is the cam rivet/bolt at the end of the slot. It will be down at the 225-deg position instead of up at the 45-deg position. This is visible thru the oil pump opening in the case when using a 3-rivet/3-bolt cam shaft. In the 70's when VW went to the 4-rivet cam shaft it was no longer possible to identify the cam orientation. Here are the two types of cam shafts/gears:
Note how you can tell from the 3-rivet cam which rivet is the one with the dot. But with the 4-rivet cam, if you cannot see the dot you cannot tell if the cam-crank is properly oriented/indexed. You have no choice but to open the case to confirm. But if the crank is at TDC and the cam slot is no where close to 45deg you know it was installed incorrectly. At TDC the slot should always be at 45deg.
To confirm the gear alignment is not off by just one tooth... rotate the crank exactly 90-deg CW from TDC (if you have a degree pulley the 90ATDC (or 270BTDC) mark will line up with the case split) this will rotate the cam 45deg CCW and the slot in the cam should be exactly vertical with the bolt/rivet at 12-o'clock. If the slot is not perfectly vertical the cam-crank gears are off by one or more teeth and you will need to open the case to fix.
Edit: How to check if the cam was bolted to the cam gear correctly?
Orient the cam as shown above with the slot at 45deg. The cam should be at either at #1 TDC or #3 TDC. Check the valves for both cylinders. If #1 valves are closed (end of compression stroke) and #3 valves are in motion (end of exhaust stroke)... the cam is bolted to the gear correctly and at the end of the #1 compression stroke. If the cylinders are swapped, rotate the crank 360deg and it should now match.
But if it is clear the valves are in some other place in the 4-stroke cycle... the cam has been bolted to gear incorrectly or has been indexed incorrectly.
I mentioned earlier that the valve open/close transitions for each cylinder happen around the TDC or BDC positions. Sometimes a few degree before or after. It is not clear from your descriptions if the open/close is happening much further away from TDC/BDC?? Are the valves opening/closing around the 90BTDC/90ATDC points? This would be very bad. I would then suggest you remove the crank pulley to confirm the pulley markings are correct.
You are using the rotor position of the distributor as a criteria. Don't. The distributor or distributor drive gear can impact the rotor position. Just look at crank position and valve movement. Describe when the #1 valves open/close based on crank position (TDC, BDC and degrees before or after) and which stroke.
You mentioned at TDC the exhaust valve is OPEN. I ask WHEN did it START to open? Normally, the exhaust valve starts to open just before the piston is near BDC of the power stoke and remains OPEN until slightly past TDC at the start of the INTAKE stroke. So it is okay for the exhaust valve to be OPEN at TDC at the end of the compression stroke.
*Actually at TDC, both valves are closed as per the first photo. Immediately after turning the crank shaft cw, the exhaust valve BEGINS to open.
Honestly, at this point it does sound like the engine was assembled incorrectly. Has this engine EVER run? |
*It has not. I inherited the assembled block and built it from there.
*Thanks for your detailed explanations. First question: Do I need a puller to get the oil pump out? I did not install it but I imagine it was new.
Second question: As I mentioned in the photos above, at TDC #1, both valves are closed. Immediately after turning the crankshaft cw, the exhaust valve begins to open. Because this should be the power stroke, shouldn't both valves be completely closed until #1 piston is at or almost at the bottom of it's stroke. No matter how I look at it I can't seem to fathom the engine could have a power stroke while the exhaust valve is open.
Last question: When I rotate the crank 180 degrees cw from TDC as shown in the third photo, the intake valve is open (and the piston is at the bottom of its cycle and begins to come back UP), the pushrod has nearly 1 mm of play between it and the back of the rocker. This also can't be good but I don't understand it. Other cylinders also have this near-1 mm play at certain times.I can't imagine the pushrods are too short or the cam lobes not large enough for this to happen.
The more I look at this and think about it the more I think I'm borked. I sent a message to the PO but I doubt he'll remember exactly how he installed the camshaft a couple of years ago but everything else about his work has been fine and lining up the crank to camshaft seems like a pretty easy procedure.
So it seems like the next step is to confirm the camshaft is in right/wrong by pulling the oil pump. I just need to know if I need a special puller.
Thank you! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
viiking
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2013
Posts: 3435
Location: Sydney Australia
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| Tenknots wrote: |
I just need to know if I need a special puller.
Thank you! |
Won't know until you try it. I've had some come out relatively easily and others that needed the puller. I'd probably lean towards the latter however.
Edit: You can easily make one out of some metal and a couple of nuts and a bolt.
_________________
1968 1500 RHD Lotus White Beetle since birth. In the hospital for major surgery
1966 Lancia Flavia Pininfarina Coupe - in the waiting room
Discharged: 1983 Vanagon, 1974 1800 Microbus,1968 Low Light,1968 Type 3 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
viiking
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2013
Posts: 3435
Location: Sydney Australia
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| Tenknots wrote: |
I just need to know if I need a special puller.
Thank you! |
Won't know until you try it. I've had some come out relatively easily and others that needed the puller. I'd probably lean towards the latter however.
_________________
1968 1500 RHD Lotus White Beetle since birth. In the hospital for major surgery
1966 Lancia Flavia Pininfarina Coupe - in the waiting room
Discharged: 1983 Vanagon, 1974 1800 Microbus,1968 Low Light,1968 Type 3 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
67rustavenger
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 11517
Location: Oregon
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| viiking wrote: |
| Tenknots wrote: |
I just need to know if I need a special puller.
Thank you! |
Won't know until you try it. I've had some come out relatively easily and others that needed the puller. I'd probably lean towards the latter however. |
Loosen the case fasteners above and below the oil pump. That will loosen the grip the case has on the pump body.
If you look carefully at the pump body, there is a small area, IIRC that slightly protrudes outside the the case mating surface. Lower right side of the pump body near the fastener/stud.
You can use a screwdriver to gently pry the pump out of the case. BTDT!
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!
2003 Astrovan? GFYS again, Xevin! 
Don't let your bad ideas remain, ideas! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chrisflstf
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 4220
Location: San Diego
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2025 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| Sounds like valves are adjusted wrong. 180 out. Try doing 3 instead of one and so forth |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Blandyp
Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2025
Posts: 48
Location: England
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2025 1:25 am Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| Tenknots wrote: |
| As I mentioned in the photos above, at TDC #1, both valves are closed. Immediately after turning the crankshaft cw, the exhaust valve begins to open. Because this should be the power stroke, shouldn't both valves be completely closed until #1 piston is at or almost at the bottom of it's stroke. No matter how I look at it I can't seem to fathom the engine could have a power stroke while the exhaust valve is open. |
As previously mentioned, what you report is absolutely not how it should be. The exhaust valve (and inlet valve) should be closed throughout this 180 degree cycle (small amount of leeway at the end, for the exhaust valve is possible). The exhaust valve should start to open at or around the bottom stroke for the next 180 turn of the crank back towards TDC, and then the 180 after that, the exhaust should be closed and the inlet opens.
The exhaust valve should only be open on an upstroke (one of every two) from BDC. The inlet valve should only be open on a downstroke (one of every two) from TDC. If you turn the engine cw by hand and watch the valves, when the inlet valve closes, turn another 180 and that’s (should be) the TDC timing position, both valves closed, both valves stay closed for a further 180 after that.
If the exhaust valve is opening at the start of your downstroke, then that’s 180 degrees (of crank rotation) too soon (90 degrees of cam rotation too soon).
You can just verify with a pencil. Take the plug out, put a long, clean, pencil (or similar item, like a straw) that won’t fall completely in - make sure it's long enough before letting go of it, in the spark plug hole. As you rotate the engine by hand, the pencil will bob up and down as the piston moves.
If the exhaust valve is open while the piston/pencil is travelling downwards, or the inlet valve open when the piston/pencil is travelling upwards, then you confirm the suspected problem.
It doesn’t matter which cylinder you use for this test, a cylinder's exhaust valve being open throughout that cylinder's downstroke is out of alignment. Ditto a cylinder's inlet valve throughout that cylinder's upstroke.
#2 is probably easiest to watch while doing the test. You're not watching TDC or anything else, just if a valve is wrongly opening on upstroke (inlet) or downstroke (exhaust).
Everything you've posted about #1 exhaust valve suggests the test will confirm misalignment.
*right at/near the TDC and BDC points there might be a tiny bit of transition, and that’s ok.
_________________
Idling insignificantly |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vamram 
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2012
Posts: 8226
Location: NOVA
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2025 3:40 am Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
Recommend not using a pencil for this. I've had one partially break in the plug hole. You don't want to have to disassemble because of a broken pencil.
_________________
"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition
to put moral chains upon their own appetites. -Edmund Burke
'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...we hardly knew ye. Sold 2025 for peanuts.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 33445
Location: Hot Arizona
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2025 7:00 am Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| vamram wrote: |
| Recommend not using a pencil for this. I've had one partially break in the plug hole. You don't want to have to disassemble because of a broken pencil. |
I've read of folks breaking off an eraser in the cylinder too ! Use a plastic drinking straw.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16766
Location: North Florida, USA
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2025 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
Some of the following questions may sound condescending, I apologize in advance. I'm just trying to save you having to drop the motor and open the case.
Are you working with cylinder #1? It is the one closest to the front right wheel.
When you confirmed #1 piston was at the top of its stroke (using a pencil/straw) what pulley marking lined up with the case split? Does your pulley have a TDC "dimple" on the rear lip? If there isn't a permanent mark on the pulley and you are working from a paint mark, I recommend you remove the crank pulley bolt and confirm which mark lines up with the case split when the crank pulley woodruff key slot is at the 9-o'clock position.
Once you have a confirmed TDC mark on you pulley, add a BDC paint mark opposite it.
Without first looking at the crank or distributor, rotate the crank pulley while you watch the #1 intake valve (the one closer to the center of the head). When you see the rocker arm start to press open the valve, stop and look at the crank position. Is the TDC mark near the case split? How many degrees away from reaching / past TDC is the mark? Where is the TDC mark when the intake valve fully closes?
Do the same for the exhaust valve.
You mentioned setting the valve gap (0.4mm / 0.016" is the correct gap) but also indicated a 1mm gap at the push rod/rocker. How can both be correct? Valve gap is set with valves closed and the max gap between rocker arm and valve.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chrisflstf
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 4220
Location: San Diego
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2025 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| The motor doesnt start because the distributor drive was put in backwards - 180 out. Then he adjusted the valves for number one , when number 3 was at TDC on the power stroke. Readjust all the valves, using this info, orient the plug wires correctly on the cap and it will start |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pondoras box
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2004
Posts: 1896
Location: Warren, PA
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2025 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| chrisflstf wrote: |
| The motor doesnt start because the distributor drive was put in backwards - 180 out. Then he adjusted the valves for number one , when number 3 was at TDC on the power stroke. Readjust all the valves, using this info, orient the plug wires correctly on the cap and it will start |
I believe he did this way back earlier.
_________________
Looking for anything from Hal Casey Motors out of Hamburg New York, from license plate surrounds to matchbooks.
1961 23 Window (Bobo)
1965 11 Window (Zelda). https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=563183
1965 13 Window (Lucas)
1957 Oval ragtop
1960 hardtop
1964 hardtop
1965 hardtop (Arschloch)
1973 standard bug (Dirty Gertie)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=804912
1988 Cabriolet VR6 conversion |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
viiking
Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2013
Posts: 3435
Location: Sydney Australia
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2025 4:09 pm Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| ashman40 wrote: |
Some of the following questions may sound condescending, I apologize in advance. I'm just trying to save you having to drop the motor and open the case.
Are you working with cylinder #1? It is the one closest to the front right wheel. |
I tried to help him using your procedure on Page 1, specifically telling that 1 and 3 appear at the TDC mark.
The TDC mark on the crank pulley indicates when both #1 and #3 cylinders are at the top of their stroke... the pulley TDC mark by itself cannot tell you which cylinder is ready to spark.
_________________
1968 1500 RHD Lotus White Beetle since birth. In the hospital for major surgery
1966 Lancia Flavia Pininfarina Coupe - in the waiting room
Discharged: 1983 Vanagon, 1974 1800 Microbus,1968 Low Light,1968 Type 3 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VW_Jimbo
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 11448
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2025 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| Tenknots wrote: |
| VW_Jimbo wrote: |
It sounds like the crank to cam timing is off. Can you please verify TDC for #1?
After setting the B notch in the pulley to line up with the case seam, pop the right side valve cover. You are then looking at cylinders 1 & 2. #1 cylinder is the one towards the front of the car. Both of the rocker arms for that cylinder should be loose and a feeeler gauge of .006 inches should have a slight drag on it. Do they?
*Yes, a .006 feeler gauge slides in, .008 does not.
Then go over to cylinder #2, it will be the cylinder to the rear of cylinder #1. Same side. The intake valve (inner one) should be at .006 inches. The exhaust valve (outer one next to the valve cover gasket surface) should be pushing on the valve stem. Is that correct?
*Intake (inner valve) is also at .006. Exhaust valve is pushing on the valve stem and partially opening the valve, though not all the way.
If the above 2 statements are proven to be true. Where is the distributor rotor pointing to now?
*The distributor rotor is pointing to the number one cylinder plug at about 9 o'clock, right at the slot in the distributor case.
If not, you got bigger problems. |
|
Does the plug wire at the spot the rotor is pointing to, go to the front right cylinder spark plug?
Then, if you go clockwise, does the next plug wire go to the rear left cylinder spark plug?
And then the next one to the left, front cylinder spark plug?
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!  |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wagen19
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 865
Location: germany
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2025 12:39 am Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
I guess, after often and long time cranking, the engine and spark plugs are completely flooded with gas. So no sparks any more.
Suggest to check oil level and drain and replace oil completely, (if mixed up with gas) and replace the spark plugs if they are wet.
It seems that the valve train and position of crank, cam and dizzy shaft is already checked, properly adjusted and all parts are in perfect position.
Just to add, once I got a overhauled distributer on which the lower "catch" was affixed 180 ° off. Maybe compare position of "finger" with different distributor.
The position of crank and cam markings and vertical position of slot for oil pump on 3 point cams is already documented in kubel manual, book of instruction from 1943, pic nr. 53.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/1943_kubelwagen_ops_manual/1943%20Kubelwagen-Typ-82.pdf |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tenknots
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2024
Posts: 56
Location: NorCal
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2025 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| chrisflstf wrote: |
| Sounds like valves are adjusted wrong. 180 out. Try doing 3 instead of one and so forth |
Thanks, I've tried that, no luck. The exhaust valve on #3 opens immediately after TDC also. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tenknots
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2024
Posts: 56
Location: NorCal
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2025 11:19 am Post subject: Re: Help, new engine won't start |
|
|
| Blandyp wrote: |
| Tenknots wrote: |
| As I mentioned in the photos above, at TDC #1, both valves are closed. Immediately after turning the crankshaft cw, the exhaust valve begins to open. Because this should be the power stroke, shouldn't both valves be completely closed until #1 piston is at or almost at the bottom of it's stroke. No matter how I look at it I can't seem to fathom the engine could have a power stroke while the exhaust valve is open. |
As previously mentioned, what you report is absolutely not how it should be. The exhaust valve (and inlet valve) should be closed throughout this 180 degree cycle (small amount of leeway at the end, for the exhaust valve is possible). The exhaust valve should start to open at or around the bottom stroke for the next 180 turn of the crank back towards TDC, and then the 180 after that, the exhaust should be closed and the inlet opens.
The exhaust valve should only be open on an upstroke (one of every two) from BDC. The inlet valve should only be open on a downstroke (one of every two) from TDC. If you turn the engine cw by hand and watch the valves, when the inlet valve closes, turn another 180 and that’s (should be) the TDC timing position, both valves closed, both valves stay closed for a further 180 after that.
If the exhaust valve is opening at the start of your downstroke, then that’s 180 degrees (of crank rotation) too soon (90 degrees of cam rotation too soon).
You can just verify with a pencil. Take the plug out, put a long, clean, pencil (or similar item, like a straw) that won’t fall completely in - make sure it's long enough before letting go of it, in the spark plug hole. As you rotate the engine by hand, the pencil will bob up and down as the piston moves.
If the exhaust valve is open while the piston/pencil is travelling downwards, or the inlet valve open when the piston/pencil is travelling upwards, then you confirm the suspected problem.
It doesn’t matter which cylinder you use for this test, a cylinder's exhaust valve being open throughout that cylinder's downstroke is out of alignment. Ditto a cylinder's inlet valve throughout that cylinder's upstroke.
#2 is probably easiest to watch while doing the test. You're not watching TDC or anything else, just if a valve is wrongly opening on upstroke (inlet) or downstroke (exhaust).
Everything you've posted about #1 exhaust valve suggests the test will confirm misalignment.
*right at/near the TDC and BDC points there might be a tiny bit of transition, and that’s ok. |
*Yes, I did this yesterday on #2 and #3. Same result - the exhaust valve opens immediately after TDC.
I cannot get the oil pump out while the engine is in the car because I can't get a puller on the crank pulley so I am going to remove the engine and then look at the position of the oil pump drive. I'm almost certain it will be incorrect. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
