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1972 Bus Type4 EA 1.7 to Ljet?
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Bnanwel
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2025 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: 1972 Bus Type4 EA 1.7 to Ljet? Reply with quote

The bus is still running great but had an interesting hiccup today. I was driving around doing various errands today; the bus was awesome all around. About a mile from home, it died and wouldn’t restart. It had the feel of fuel starvation, start up and immediately die. I popped under, fuel pump running and no cavitation. I thought it might be the TS2; so, I switched to my installed backup ts2, no change. I popped the fuel cap to check venting, no vacuum. I then disconnected the ts2 and grounded the wire. The bus started up and drove home normally. I assumed both TS2s are bad. CHT showed 205, not hot. I let it sit for 1-1/2 hrs, reconnected the TS2; the bus started and ran completely normal. Swapped to the backup TS2, same result. Is this the typical or at least a common style of failure? Other thoughts?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2025 1:02 pm    Post subject: Re: 1972 Bus Type4 EA 1.7 to Ljet? Reply with quote

Test them for Ohms. Also test fuel pressure, maybe the TS2 isn't to blame for the sudden richness.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2025 1:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 1972 Bus Type4 EA 1.7 to Ljet? Reply with quote

I’ll definitely test both ts2s and fuel pressure. It seemed pretty definitive when neither ts2 started the engine but grounding immediately had effect. I was actually surprised that both worked after it sat.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2025 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: 1972 Bus Type4 EA 1.7 to Ljet? Reply with quote

Pressure normal - 35 Eng off/28 Eng running, both TS2s were normal according to Ratwells resistance to temp chart. Vapor lock? The fuel pump was warmer than I would expect, but I didn’t hear it cavitating. I did run the pump for a couple of minutes; maybe that cleared the lines. It didn’t start however until I grounded the TS2 wire, maybe coincidentally given 10 minutes and the pump running.? Also, 3/4 tank while all this was happening but Ethanol laced.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2025 12:49 pm    Post subject: Re: 1972 Bus Type4 EA 1.7 to Ljet? Reply with quote

My bus is running great all-round except for the recurrence of what I am now sure is vapor lock. I was gridlocked for about 20 minutes yesterday and stalled. This time I did nothing but check the temps of the fuel lines(130F) and the pump(124F). I then waited about fifteen minutes with the hatch open, trying to start every 4-5 minutes. It started up and ran normally after the wait. During my wait, I ran the fuel pump and watched the clear fuel filter, lots of bubbling, and I could hear the pump cavitating. Clearly, I need to address this issue. Has anyone used a vented filter with a vapor separator. If so, where did you vent to the tank, tee in vapor system/direct? Has anyone insulated the fuel lines? Is my, just below the tank, fuel pump location a horribly hot spot? Other ideas?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2025 2:21 pm    Post subject: Re: 1972 Bus Type4 EA 1.7 to Ljet? Reply with quote

The fuel pump location could be part of the problem as when they get too hot, they don't pump well. The usual location is on the outside of the frame with exposure to constant air passing by - keeping them cool.

I found out first hand after installing my A/C condenser this summer. I didn't have the extra gasoline hose on hand so I kept the fuel pump in place and installed the condenser over the fuel pump and it worked fine until it got too hot, and the engine died.

After waiting 5 mins it started right back up but I could only run the A/C when I was driving for enough air flow to keep the pump from overheating. If I stopped in traffic, I had to shut off the A/C.
I ended up buying more gas hose and relocating my pump and it has worked fine since.

Additionally, I had an issue with a fuel filter I had picked up from CIP1 a few years ago that didn't have enough clearance at the entry point and restricted the fuel entering the filter. This caused to fuel pump to cavitate as well. I replaced it with a metal filter and no more cavitation but I have the FI gas tank with the 2 fittings. Can you post a pic of your fuel filter?

Maybe try relocating your fuel pump to the outside of the frame first as this may solve your issue without changing the fuel return line set up that you are using that has worked for others.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2025 4:46 pm    Post subject: Re: 1972 Bus Type4 EA 1.7 to Ljet? Reply with quote

here is a general answer. The stock FI tank has a baffle in it to keep the pump from sucking air if the fuel is low and the fuel is sloshing. I think the repop tanks do not have the baffle so they must be kept fuller to work right. The stock fi tank also has both a feed nipple and a return nipple. The feed line pulls cooler fuel from the tank and the return line feeds hotter fuel to the tank, fuel that has fed thru the engine bay. The fuel cools when it returns back to the fi tank. If a carb tank is used, it has no return line so some people use a tee arrangement to recirculate the returning fuel. This can add heat and additional places where air can be sucked in, causing the pump to cavitate. Some people weld in a return nipple to a carb tank to use it for FI.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2025 6:31 pm    Post subject: Re: 1972 Bus Type4 EA 1.7 to Ljet? Reply with quote

Bnanwel wrote:
My bus is running great all-round except for the recurrence of what I am now sure is vapor lock. I was gridlocked for about 20 minutes yesterday and stalled. This time I did nothing but check the temps of the fuel lines(130F) and the pump(124F). I then waited about fifteen minutes with the hatch open, trying to start every 4-5 minutes. It started up and ran normally after the wait. During my wait, I ran the fuel pump and watched the clear fuel filter, lots of bubbling, and I could hear the pump cavitating. Clearly, I need to address this issue. Has anyone used a vented filter with a vapor separator. If so, where did you vent to the tank, tee in vapor system/direct? Has anyone insulated the fuel lines? Is my, just below the tank, fuel pump location a horribly hot spot? Other ideas?



A couple of things:

1. yes...130F is HOT for fuel lines inside the engine compartment.

2. If you ACTUALLY have pressure showing at the fuel pressure gauge and its STEADY...ether at idle where it will be lower or at say mid range rpm with throttle cracked where it should be higher.....then you DO NOT have vapor lock.

A. You cannot produce stable pressure with bubbles of vapor/air/gas in the lines. If you ARE producing some pressure.....and you do have gas bubble in the lines...the gauge needle will be rattling like crazy...like 28 psi at idle will produce gauge needle swings about twice per second at idle between probably 25 psi and 29 psi.

B. if you have pressure in the lines...it raises the vapor pressure anyway. With proper pressure its almost impossible to have vapor lock. This is not a carbed engine running 2-3 psi.

2. If you do the math to calculate the volume in the fuel lines between the pump outlet and through the complete fuel loop....and then check the standard fuel pump output AT PRESSURE....which is ~ 1 liter per minute at about 36-42 psi....you will find that the engine consumes about 10% of what is sent to it max....and the other 90% goes straight through the loop and back to the tank. This fuel travel process takes from pump outlet back to the tank return inlet....about 10-15 seconds.

It is not spending time sitting in lines in the emgine compartment getting hot. Yeah...it picks up a little heat from the fuel lines ...but not much. Just no time.

3. This should tell you that if you have NORMAL volume running through your fuel loop....there should be very little temperature rise to the metal fuel lines. Fuel zips into the loop, cools the lines and goes right out the other end to the tank.

So....have you done a fuel volume test on your pump at pressure?

If for some reason you have a restriction to the pump....it WILL run hot because its cavitating sinide.

4. Where is your fuel filter that you can see bubbles in it? There should be NO fuel filter on the pressure side unless its one of the large digifant style high flow metal cannister filters....otherwise it creates a restriction.

5. If your fuel filter is between the fuel tank and fuel pump inlet....and you are seeing bubbles coming from the TANK.....then likely you have something causing foaming in the tank or are sucking up bubbles from the return line.....which WILL cause cavitation and pump overheating when they get sucked into the pump.

As a test....take your return line and add some extra hose and snake it up and plumb it into the gas filler. Sounds silly but its an experiment. If it fixes the problem you may be simply sucking up foam/bubbles form the return line dumping in too close to the inlet.

Going of memory...you are not running a FI tank right?
Ray
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PostPosted: Yesterday 6:06 am    Post subject: Re: 1972 Bus Type4 EA 1.7 to Ljet? Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
here is a general answer. The stock FI tank has a baffle in it to keep the pump from sucking air if the fuel is low and the fuel is sloshing. I think the repop tanks do not have the baffle so they must be kept fuller…


While it is a carb tank, there is a return to the tank; this is not a t or y system. The tank was at 7/8 full; so, sloshing is out. The filter is 4” from the tank feed. This same scenario played out about a month ago, sitting still for twenty minutes… It definitely seems heat related.
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PostPosted: Yesterday 6:34 am    Post subject: Re: 1972 Bus Type4 EA 1.7 to Ljet? Reply with quote

Bnanwel wrote:
SGKent wrote:
here is a general answer. The stock FI tank has a baffle in it to keep the pump from sucking air if the fuel is low and the fuel is sloshing. I think the repop tanks do not have the baffle so they must be kept fuller…


While it is a carb tank, there is a return to the tank; this is not a t or y system. The tank was at 7/8 full; so, sloshing is out. The filter is 4” from the tank feed. This same scenario played out about a month ago, sitting still for twenty minutes… It definitely seems heat related.


Stock pump right?

What is the voltage supplied at the pump? If its low it runs hot.

Where is the pump mounted? As mentioned by others, it needs to have some airflow over it but also this is probably not tne main issue just an added heat issue.

If you have not done so, run the volume test by putting the return line in a jar and measure what you get over 1 minute while its running.

Your observation that you are getting bubbles in the inlet fuel BEFORE the pump supports.....either.....vapor separation (in that case I am betting the pump itself is heating the fuel up).....or from foaming.

Where in relation to the the inlet is the return dumping in?

Ray
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PostPosted: Yesterday 6:49 am    Post subject: Re: 1972 Bus Type4 EA 1.7 to Ljet? Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
Bnanwel wrote:
My bus is running great all-round except for the recurrence of what I am now sure is vapor lock. I was gridlocked for about 20 minutes yesterday and stalled. This time I did nothing but check the temps of the fuel lines(130F) and the pump(124F). I then waited about fifteen minutes with the hatch open, trying to start every 4-5 minutes. It started up and ran normally after the wait. During my wait, I ran the fuel pump and watched the clear fuel filter, lots of bubbling, and I could hear the pump cavitating. Clearly, I need to address this issue. Has anyone used a vented filter with a vapor separator. If so, where did you vent to the tank, tee in vapor system/direct? Has anyone insulated the fuel lines? Is my, just below the tank, fuel pump location a horribly hot spot? Other ideas?



A couple of things:

1. yes...130F is HOT for fuel lines inside the engine compartment.

2. If you ACTUALLY have pressure showing at the fuel pressure gauge and its STEADY...ether at idle where it will be lower or at say mid range rpm with throttle cracked where it should be higher.....then you DO NOT have vapor lock.

A. You cannot produce stable pressure with bubbles of vapor/air/gas in the lines. If you ARE producing some pressure.....and you do have gas bubble in the lines...the gauge needle will be rattling like crazy...like 28 psi at idle will produce gauge needle swings about twice per second at idle between probably 25 psi and 29 psi.

B. if you have pressure in the lines...it raises the vapor pressure anyway. With proper pressure its almost impossible to have vapor lock. This is not a carbed engine running 2-3 psi.

2. If you do the math to calculate the volume in the fuel lines between the pump outlet and through the complete fuel loop....and then check the standard fuel pump output AT PRESSURE....which is ~ 1 liter per minute at about 36-42 psi....you will find that the engine consumes about 10% of what is sent to it max....and the other 90% goes straight through the loop and back to the tank. This fuel travel process takes from pump outlet back to the tank return inlet....about 10-15 seconds.

It is not spending time sitting in lines in the emgine compartment getting hot. Yeah...it picks up a little heat from the fuel lines ...but not much. Just no time.

3. This should tell you that if you have NORMAL volume running through your fuel loop....there should be very little temperature rise to the metal fuel lines. Fuel zips into the loop, cools the lines and goes right out the other end to the tank.

So....have you done a fuel volume test on your pump at pressure?

If for some reason you have a restriction to the pump....it WILL run hot because its cavitating sinide.

4. Where is your fuel filter that you can see bubbles in it? There should be NO fuel filter on the pressure side unless its one of the large digifant style high flow metal cannister filters....otherwise it creates a restriction.

5. If your fuel filter is between the fuel tank and fuel pump inlet....and you are seeing bubbles coming from the TANK.....then likely you have something causing foaming in the tank or are sucking up bubbles from the return line.....which WILL cause cavitation and pump overheating when they get sucked into the pump.

As a test....take your return line and add some extra hose and snake it up and plumb it into the gas filler. Sounds silly but its an experiment. If it fixes the problem you may be simply sucking up foam/bubbles form the return line dumping in too close to the inlet.

Going of memory...you are not running a FI tank right?
Ray


I have not had time to check volume and pressure again since this occurred two days ago, but it’s on the asap list. My filter is 4” from the tank feed just before the pump. I slid under the bus to tank temp readings and look at the filter. The pump was definitely cavitating, and I saw bubbles in the filter. After ten minutes or so, I checked again, no bubbles/pump cooler. The bus then started and ran normally. I’ve been driving a lot. Since the first stall, I’ve been checking the temp and filter after every long run, bubble free/(around 100F). Given that I have yet to check, I can’t absolutely assert that it’s not a volume or pressure problem, but it certainly seems heat related. With ethanol-laced fuel, vapor lock is problematic even on a lot of modern efi cars. The return dumps into the tank 5” from the feed angled away from the pick up. The whole thing “looks like” heat soak.
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PostPosted: Yesterday 7:02 am    Post subject: Re: 1972 Bus Type4 EA 1.7 to Ljet? Reply with quote

Shonandb wrote:
The fuel pump location could be part of the problem as when they get too hot, they don't pump well. The usual location is on the outside of the frame with exposure to constant air passing by - keeping them cool.

I found out first hand after installing my A/C condenser this summer. I didn't have the extra gasoline hose on hand so I kept the fuel pump in place and installed the condenser over the fuel pump and it worked fine until it got too hot, and the engine died.

After waiting 5 mins it started right back up but I could only run the A/C when I was driving for enough air flow to keep the pump from overheating. If I stopped in traffic, I had to shut off the A/C.
I ended up buying more gas hose and relocating my pump and it has worked fine since.

Additionally, I had an issue with a fuel filter I had picked up from CIP1 a few years ago that didn't have enough clearance at the entry point and restricted the fuel entering the filter. This caused to fuel pump to cavitate as well. I replaced it with a metal filter and no more cavitation but I have the FI gas tank with the 2 fittings. Can you post a pic of your fuel filter?

Maybe try relocating your fuel pump to the outside of the frame first as this may solve your issue without changing the fuel return line set up that you are using that has worked for others.


I thought that location might be problematic, above the heat exchanger dump. I haven’t seen one bubble in the filter except on those two occasions when it stalled after sitting in traffic, even during an hour or more of driving; I’ve looked. I am running a carb tank with the return line running “through” an enlarged T and extending into the tank angled away from the feed. It’s not set up with the return t’d into a loop back to the pump. It returns the fuel to the tank.
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PostPosted: Yesterday 7:18 am    Post subject: Re: 1972 Bus Type4 EA 1.7 to Ljet? Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
Bnanwel wrote:
SGKent wrote:
here is a general answer. The stock FI tank has a baffle in it to keep the pump from sucking air if the fuel is low and the fuel is sloshing. I think the repop tanks do not have the baffle so they must be kept fuller…


While it is a carb tank, there is a return to the tank; this is not a t or y system. The tank was at 7/8 full; so, sloshing is out. The filter is 4” from the tank feed. This same scenario played out about a month ago, sitting still for twenty minutes… It definitely seems heat related.


Stock pump right?

What is the voltage supplied at the pump? If its low it runs hot.

Where is the pump mounted? As mentioned by others, it needs to have some airflow over it but also this is probably not tne main issue just an added heat issue.

If you have not done so, run the volume test by putting the return line in a jar and measure what you get over 1 minute while its running.

Your observation that you are getting bubbles in the inlet fuel BEFORE the pump supports.....either.....vapor separation (in that case I am betting the pump itself is heating the fuel up).....or from foaming.

Where in relation to the the inlet is the return dumping in?

Ray


Low voltage is a good point; I’ll certainly check. If you look at the recent post, you’ll see the return line setup. I don’t think it is likely to cause foaming except perhaps in very low-fuel conditions. The pump (Bosch) came in mixed bag of FI stuff that I fully tested prior to installation. I think its likely location related, perhaps exacerbated by lowered voltage. The pump is just under the tank right after the filter.
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PostPosted: Yesterday 8:42 am    Post subject: Re: 1972 Bus Type4 EA 1.7 to Ljet? Reply with quote

measure pressure before the pump with a gauge that shows vacuum. See if you are pulling a slight vacuum when it is hot.

What you are describing has been observed many times in many threads here on the Samba when a carb tank is used for FI. But in those instances they were recirculating in a Y or T, not the setup you have. The FI pumps push significant volume so if that fitting can't keep up then it may be pulling a slight vacuum, which lowers the temp that gasoline turns to vapor.
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PostPosted: Yesterday 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: 1972 Bus Type4 EA 1.7 to Ljet? Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
measure pressure before the pump with a gauge that shows vacuum. See if you are pulling a slight vacuum when it is hot.

What you are describing has been observed many times in many threads here on the Samba when a carb tank is used for FI. But in those instances they were recirculating in a Y or T, not the setup you have. The FI pumps push significant volume so if that fitting can't keep up then it may be pulling a slight vacuum, which lowers the temp that gasoline turns to vapor.

That’s also a good idea as I think it’s a combination of things. With the increased temp and ethanol’s lower vapor pressure, as a slight restriction causing even a very slight vacuum would lower the vapor pressure enough to boil in the filter. I’ll try to do all these tests to confirm prior to making changes in the system. The Samba always provides an excellent sounding board/think tank. Thanks guys.
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PostPosted: Yesterday 10:43 am    Post subject: Re: 1972 Bus Type4 EA 1.7 to Ljet? Reply with quote

Bnanwel wrote:
SGKent wrote:
measure pressure before the pump with a gauge that shows vacuum. See if you are pulling a slight vacuum when it is hot.

What you are describing has been observed many times in many threads here on the Samba when a carb tank is used for FI. But in those instances they were recirculating in a Y or T, not the setup you have. The FI pumps push significant volume so if that fitting can't keep up then it may be pulling a slight vacuum, which lowers the temp that gasoline turns to vapor.

That’s also a good idea as I think it’s a combination of things. With the increased temp and ethanol’s lower vapor pressure, as a slight restriction causing even a very slight vacuum would lower the vapor pressure enough to boil in the filter. I’ll try to do all these tests to confirm prior to making changes in the system. The Samba always provides an excellent sounding board/think tank. Thanks guys.


While this sounds good....you will have to have a VERY good vacuum gauge to measure any discernable "suction" before the pump. A better way to understand the lift potential of a rotary pump is by measuring pressure head and pressure stability at that head.

From going back a few pages and reading all of this....you SEEM to have cavitation that comes and goes. I do not think it is vapor/fuel temperature by itself. I think that is triggering what is already a weak feed to the pump.

L-jet pumps are notorious for have very poor suction/lift capability. You noted that this pump is one you got in a batch of parts. That does not tell you how old it is or whether its a turbine ring pump or a roller cell pump or at least you have not posted that here.

If its an older pump and is a turbine ring pump...they are worse than stock Bosch original roller cell pumps for suction/lift capability. If its a stock roller cell pump and has ANY...ANY...iternal rust on the rollers ...its suspect and can easily have poor efficiency. If its a late model turbine ring pump its probably the best of the bunch.

All of that said....I started looking at your Tee assembly with the return tube going through it. 90* bends create some turbulence. I think the 90* outlet along with a tube running through where any turbulence knuckle may be....can cause a weak flow. Anything that impinges on that ....fuel heat...pump heat from low voltage...can cause the pump to no longer be able to feed itself suction wise.

Questions:

Are you still using a damn internal sock filter in the tank? If so, is it factory? Either way, get rid of it. Put an external inline strainer on it.

What fuel filter are you using?

Ray
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PostPosted: Yesterday 11:02 am    Post subject: Re: 1972 Bus Type4 EA 1.7 to Ljet? Reply with quote

Oh...quick note:

You never did post the part number for your pump....or at least I cannot find it.

Its important because there is a vast range of Bosch two port pumps that all look identical.

However, there are more than a few through the years that were designed for specific applications and may not work RELIABLY with L-jet.

Examples.....a Bosch 044 high pressure pump will not work RELIABLY without an in-tank or inline low pressuer feeder pump or at worst, installed in a dedicated sump in the tank.

There are also later no high pressure variants that are designed to ONLY work in a sump without a feeder pump.

I spent a few minutes thinking about the frequency and conditions of the "come and go" issue...and realized that it actually nearly matches the symptom that you get when:

A. Have a failing feeder pump or a leaking hose from the feeder pump to the main pump...when using a Bosch 044.

B. Have a poor flowing or clogged sump filter bag....on a Bosch 044 or a non-044 that is designed to work in an in-tank sump.

C. Have a weak or leaking outlet check valve or a missing check valve on a wide range of Bosch typoe 2 port pumps.

Ray
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PostPosted: Yesterday 11:24 am    Post subject: Re: 1972 Bus Type4 EA 1.7 to Ljet? Reply with quote

I agree that the pump is an unknown given its age, but since adding the return, there has been no cavitation or any turbulence bubbles like there were when y-ing to a loop. I have driven for hours at a time without problems except the two bumper-to-bumper-for-twenty-minutes stalls. I checked at every stop for more than a month. There is no sock. I agree with every possibility you suggest and am starting to think that it is the cumulative effect of several things: slight restriction at feed(return through feed), ethanol(lower vapor pressure), bad pump location(more heat soak), and perhaps an old pump creating more heat…
I will try to test and document all of these possibilities before making changes to at least attempt to find the big causal points. It will probably be a few days before I have the time.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Yesterday 12:44 pm    Post subject: Re: 1972 Bus Type4 EA 1.7 to Ljet? Reply with quote

Bnanwel wrote:
I agree that the pump is an unknown given its age, but since adding the return, there has been no cavitation or any turbulence bubbles like there were when y-ing to a loop. I have driven for hours at a time without problems except the two bumper-to-bumper-for-twenty-minutes stalls. I checked at every stop for more than a month. There is no sock. I agree with every possibility you suggest and am starting to think that it is the cumulative effect of several things: slight restriction at feed(return through feed), ethanol(lower vapor pressure), bad pump location(more heat soak), and perhaps an old pump creating more heat…
I will try to test and document all of these possibilities before making changes to at least attempt to find the big causal points. It will probably be a few days before I have the time.


Yes, among its other bad benefits, ethanol blends poorly with gasoline and can lower the "Reid vapor pressure". I think as you do that this is cumulative.....a handful of small things causing poor feed to the pump. In reality, the heat alone under the conditions you describe should not be causing this.

I have driven D-jet, L-jet, digifant and CIS, hundreds of thousands of miles in almost every pump, feed and return configurations in some of the hottest weather and daily bumper to bumper traffic and never had vapor cavitation....without other factors involved.

I have had it a few times but its always traceable to one or two other issues (none of which by themselves cause this issue)....along with the heat. Ray
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Bnanwel
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PostPosted: Yesterday 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: 1972 Bus Type4 EA 1.7 to Ljet? Reply with quote

I forgot to note the pump number: Bosch 0 580 463 016
VW 251 906 091
(963) 063 14 Made in France (date code? Jun 6, 2014?)
Tested fine 6 months ago on the engine prior to engine install. (PSI 34/28 running and well over L/min, fwiw.
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