rain, not starting..no JBB?!?!

[vwesty]

i was gearing up to go to the john brown's buses campout today but looks like i'm stuck. my 82 westy got stuck in the rain close to home last night and won't start. there is no crank, only a click when turning the ignition.

here's how it happened:

-after work, went home started her without problems.
-drove to an outside car wash, washed the car. started again without problems.
-drove to have the oil changed (my own filter, just needed a place to have it done). started without problems.
-drove to the supermarket, it started raining. go inside and come out maybe 10 mins later and the westy won't start (engine is hot).
- many hours in the rain trying to get it started (engine is cold), still didn't start.

the battery checked out ok, and out of ideas in the rainy night, i end up having AAA tow me.

my westy lives in an apartment garage and has started every time for the past 2 or so months (doesn't mean much since it doesn't rain down there). i drive it at least once a week, and as recently as the day before yesterday it started without problems, so it seems more of a moisture issue than something actually being broken.

also, when i park more than a few mins (including the grocery trip) i disconnect the negative terminal to the battery, i suspect i may have a small short somewhere that i fear slowly drains the battery.

any suggestions what to check aside from the grounds in the engine compartment? i reseeded spark plug connectors, FI connectors, coil is less than 6 months old, ground in engine compartment are clean.

any thoughts would be greatly appreciated....hopefully i can still get up to JBB.

[mightyart]

If it's a manual transmission, you need to learn how to "pop" the clutch to get it started, it will save you from having to have it towed.
The starters for aircooled VWs are known for their crappyness.
The silinoids seem to stick alot, I would guess that is what is wrong with yours.
It's easy to check with a multi-meter, and a buddy to turn the key.
If you're handy it's easy to change

[bucko]

In Beetles, this has also become a common problem. Most install a relay between the starter and battery, to allow more current to crank the starter. Years of corrosion, and age of the wiring cause low current flow from the battery to the starter. When the key is turned to the starter engage position, the current has to flow from the battery through the ignition switch, then back to the soliniod/starter (Beetle wiring/ I'm assuming the Buses are the same).

You can: clean the battery terminals, clean the fuse position for ignition, clean the starter terminals at the starter. My guess is that the rain has added some moisture in one of these areas, dropping the current needed to turn over the starter.

A good way to prevent this "aging wiring" syndrom is to add a simple and cheap relay that allows current flow direct from the battery to the starter, bypasing the path to the ignition switch. If the buses are the same as Beetles in this aspect, this will cure your starting woes.

[bucko]

Here is a link to a site that has a good write up on installing a simple starter relay (assuming this is the problem):

http://www.glenn-ring.com/tech/relay_starter.htm

[vwesty]

bucko, mightyart, thanks for the info. i'll take a look at the starter/solenoid connections and make sure they're dry and clean. i'll look into installing a starter relay some time soon as well. from what i've briefly read though, the relay seems to solve 'hot start' problems. my westy wouldn't start even when cold...you guys think that this may still be helpful?

[bucko]

How did you conclude that the relay was for hot start conditions? I do not see that. In the link it states:

"The problem is that after 30 plus years the wires get old and the electrical resistance increases until turning the key just doesn’t supply enough to engaged the starter."

Adding this relay can cure 90% of slow or non cranking issues, PROVIDED the battery and it's cables are in good, clean condition. Obviously, this fix will not solve a bad battery, or bad battery cables.

[vwesty]

yeah, i did see that, but this is what made me ask the question:

"to lessen the chances of your bus not starting when it's hot"

http://www.type2.com/bartnik/relay.htm

[bucko]

Ah ha!

Now I see. I can say with certainty that this method works, provided the battery and it's cables are in good working order. I have had several Beetles that would often crank the starter motor when the key was turned, and then there were days that they would not. Flipping the key back to off and then back on would sometimes work, or wiggling the fuse did the trick, but after awhile, I would just end up installing the relay. No more aggravation.

[Dellaone]

The other question for me is why do you have to pull the ground connection off of the battery?

Do you have a stereo or some other add-on electrical device sucking power with the key off?

I installed a Dual model something-or-other radio / CD player that required two different sources of power, (one "hot" for preset memory, one switched). Of course, following the original radio wiring logic in my '87 Syncro, I mistakenly wired both wires to "hot". (Duh).

It took some time to notice, but during the time I was doing my Westy conversion, after a month or two of inactivity, I noticed that my battery was dead.
I used a VOM to check for current flow between the disconnected ground strap and the negative post on the battery (after recharging the battery) on the milliamp scale, and the needle was pegged off scale (yeah, Simpson 260 analog meter).

After doing some head scratching, I revisited the radio wiring, and connected the one wire to switched power as called for by the radio diagram. Problem solved.

I never noticed it with daily driving (good battery), but after letting it sit, it bit me.

Cheers,

Dave

[VanaganAl]

Mine did that!

This is not a bug and there are no relays between the starter solenoid and the start switch contacts, at least not on my 84. Try bypassing the starter motor contacts on the switch plug---you've got to remove it and make a jumper to use. If it cranks, it is the switch or the pin that turns the switch (on the end of the lock cylinder); the pin breaks off and won't turn the switch all the way to the start position.

On the other hand, low or dead batteries can cause the same problem!

VA

[?Waldo?]

[vwesty]

dellaone, i pull the ground because the battery seems to slowly discharge when i have it sitting for a week. maybe i do it more for piece of mind so that i could rule out that it's not a dead battery if it fails to start. i don't have a radio, but the wiring under the dash is a mess. i suspect there may be a short there somewhere, cleaning that up is one of the many projects on my list.

[vwesty]

so i may have found the culprit.

i was underneath looking at the wiring to the solenoid and found that the bottom connector that looks like a ground wire ("connection A for field windings" as described on page 27.13 of the bentley manual) was completely rusted, crumbled, and broken off at the base on the side of the starter. i imagine this was why the starter wouldn't crank.

looks like it's time for a new starter, or does anyone have advice on rigging this cable.

[vwmaniaman]

Hot start or cold start on a VW, always cary a 2 X 4 under the back seat about 1 foot long. Take a light swing at the solenoid with it, and then try to start it. Always works for me and then I do the solenoid connection drill and pull it off and clean the plunger with fine sandpaper and put it back together.of course when I get home. Resistive ignition switch can do it too.
_________________
Working on a VW is like fun with a friend!
65 Beetle
75 Westy "Pumpkin Van"
86 Westy "Brown Betty"
87 Cabrio

[vwesty]

here's what the problem looks like:

[mightyart]

Time for a new one (starter), you live in the rust belt?

[vwesty]

Finally got a remanufactured Bosch starter, put it in...started right up. Nice 'new' sounding start...

[lovedavdubs]

[vwesty]

Ran a little over $200 for the starter with ground shipping, but $55 of that is the core deposit which I will get back. Ordered from Bus Depot for quick ground shipping since they're close to me but they didn't tell me that the starter ships from California, took a solid week to get it.

Pretty straight forward to replace, two bolts and the starter is off (one long bolt you need to get to is in the engine compartment). My bushing looked in good shape so I didn't change it, just put the new starter in. Probably took 20-30 mins to uninstall/install. Reconnected everything and now has a nicer sounding start (well, along with that it now actually starts).

[tikibus]

One place to check is the little black box on the left upper corner in the engine bay. There is a seal and over time wears out. Check this area for moisture, corrosion on the contacts ( be gentle). Found out why my rear rht binker was not working... the Black Box! If something is not working follow the positive lines to any connection. It can be as simple as the cigarette lighter in the socket and just barely touching...

Is there any aftermarket items piggy backed on the fuse cluster( black box with a silver bolt) behind the Drivers Seat? Check there. Had issues there, no more. Worse case scenario is the Main Fuse Area under the dash on the drivers side. There has been posts before about moisture getting in there by leaking window seal, etc. I explored there last night and used can air to blow any refuse and dust, etc. out of there. I have my work cut out to clean contacts. Tune up electrical grease, get some.
Finding the problem is half the fun, that's why beer was invented.


All the Best.


______________
1984 Westy TIKIBUS
1997 Honda Civic

VW Vanagons cannot move pole barns.
Do not taunt Happy Fun Van.