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itzdshtz
Samba Member
Joined: December 24, 2006
Posts: 117
Location: Revelstoke
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4570
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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 Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: Upper ball joint spacer |
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| itzdshtz wrote: |
After I installed my extended front shocks, (I have 23" between the center of the hub and the fender bottom) I ended up making a spacer that fits between the ball joint and the A-arm.
The problem I had was that the rubber boot kept popping off the ball joint when the vehicle was jacked up, the angle was too steep.
It also looked like I had too much negative Camber, the spacer is angled and just bolts in between. You will have to drill out the threads of your ball joint, there are two socket type bolts on the top and 2 on the bottom.
This will also work for a regular Vanagon.
Some pictures:
http://picasaweb.google.com/itzdshtz/VanagonSyncroProject02
http://vanagonsyncroproject-herman.blogspot.com/ |
Wow. Nice! This guy is from a different planet. and my favorite engine, too!
Didn't the Eurovan diesel ever get turboed?
Al
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Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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Christopher Schimke
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Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5526
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| 69doublecab wrote: |
What wouuld be the effect of body roll during these cornering calculations? It seems like it could affect it.
Al |
Yes, the body roll definately affects the suspension geometry. The body roll will exagerate the calculations. For example (just a rough example to make it easy to understand), let's say you combine 1º of camber gain as the suspension compresses along with 1º of body roll. It's easy to see how the camber gain (or lack of it in some cases) will be greater with the added body roll. Therefore, it is important to do what we can to make the supension geometry as "right" as possible in order to have a good handling vehicle.
It is possible to plot out all of the changes but it involves figuring the roll center, instantaneous centers, center of gravity, roll angle, etc.
Here's a quote from Allan Staniforth, suspension authority:
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The trouble with all theoretical suspension concepts is that they alter once real life cornering and other forces come into play, because static data on which they are based alters. The Dynamic Roll Centre (as opposed to the static one) can and does move up, down and sidways. How far and which way are two of the several questions not easy to answer.
Roll being itself a function of another equally invisible point, the Centre of Gravity (which though fixed can appear to exert itself dynamically as if it had moved), it can be seen how the variations and uncertainties are rapidly multiplying. Leverages alter, the car's attitude alters, weight transfer from inner to outer wheels alters, and the end of the line, the tyre contact patches start distorting under a complex and varying series of loads. |
It should be easy to see just how complicated this can get. I have always wanted to plot out the complete geometry of a lowered bus but have never taken the time.
Itzdshtz, Very nice work on those spacers as well as the rest of your Syncro project.
Did you happen to observe the upper ball joint angle with the suspension fully compressed with your angled spacers installed? Just curious because I would be worried that the joints might run out of angular movement before the suspension does. I'm not sayingthat this is the case, it's just something that I would want to know.
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"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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tikibus
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2006
Posts: 834
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Wow!
Okay, I take back my smartass comment and sit humbly.
Nice work.
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Happy Trails!
Mark
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Founding member of the Empire State VW Camping Club.
http://www.empirevwcamping.org/
1984 Westy - Tiki
1997 Honda Civic -The Green Hornet
1971 Volvo P-1800E- needs TLC |
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snoop
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 374
Location: SW Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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Wow. Awesome Chris. Thank you. Based on your information I'm inclined to build 1.75" spacers, install 'em and see what kind of camber sitch I get. Trimming 'em down would be a cinch if that's what's indicated.
The 1000+ mile trip to eastern Oregon was a hoot. I'll be posting a thread about it to relate all of the van parts that rattled loose/off as a result of the washboards roads that I was able to drive so much darn faster on with the new suspension!
I should point out that post-trip, the front has settled in to 18.5"...I REALLY don't expect any further settlement...I'm talkin' REALLY fast on REALLY washboarded roads for LOTS of miles. No movement of the shims. Rears still at 18.75"...I may drop 'em a 1/4" someday in order to satisfy my Libra nature. Lotta other westy work higher up the que though...more on that in that coming thread.
Here's a teaser though...a shot of the camel totin' our tubes on the trip:
Thanks again Chris...it'll be some time before I get the spacers made, and based on the handling, I can't justify doing it...it handles AWESOME! But, intellectually, I know you're right...it can be even better! Which is even MORE AWESOME! I'll post about the job when I do. And thanks for your contribution itzdshtz...very impressive! And inspirational!
Peace,
Mike
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87 Westy Camper |
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itzdshtz
Samba Member
Joined: December 24, 2006
Posts: 117
Location: Revelstoke
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks guys, I hope it was helpful.
My spacer is 1" thick and tapers down to 0.600", it brings the ball joint angle down to what it was before I installed the extended shock absorbers, so it should be OK when the suspension is fully compressed.
westysapien, your van looks great, 1" would probably do it for you too.
Loogy, you made some very interesting calculations and a nice chart!
Herman
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1989 Westy
1987 Westy Syncro 2.5 M- TDI
1991 Syncro, future 1.9 M- TDI
2005 Audi allroad 4.2
2005 S4
http://vanagonsyncroproject-herman.blogspot.com/
http://picasaweb.google.com/itzdshtz/VanagonSyncroProject02 |
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rileyh
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2007
Posts: 1
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:29 am Post subject: Spacer material |
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| The spacer between the ball joint and the upper a-arm looks good. What material did you use? I cannot tell from the pictures. Aluminum would be the easiest to machine but I would be worried about it being strong enough, especially over a long period of time with fatigue. Thanks. |
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itzdshtz
Samba Member
Joined: December 24, 2006
Posts: 117
Location: Revelstoke
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snoop
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 374
Location: SW Oregon
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the additional photos of the spacer Herman.
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87 Westy Camper |
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usedcarr
Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2006
Posts: 67
Location: Calabasas CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, FRONTS, I see now. I am nowhere near as smart as I look. I thought he did both. Nice graphs BTW loogy, I like the multi colors. Pretty!
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10'0" Lance Carson
6'3" Hamisch Fish
Schwinn Beach Cruiser
Sold the westy, never even drove it |
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