Stock turn signal relay - What relay do you use?

[2Pack]

I have a 1964 bus. I'm trying to use a stock-looking turn signal relay with stock wiring and need some help.

Here's what I consider to be a stock-looking turn signal relay (silver can):

Here's the correct wiring (From Aug 62, USA version) for my bus:
The TS relay is “J”.

The problem I have is with the wire going to the indicator light on the spedo. I have two correct-looking relays, but neither one has the K terminal. Instead, they just have a terminal that goes to ground.

Here's an example of the relays I have:

Instead of this terminal to ground I need a terminal that provides an intermittent ground during turn signal operation and an open circuit at all other times.

Please post any of the following information if you have it:

1. A source of stock- looking relays that will work with my stock wiring.

2. A source of non stock-looking relays that will work with my stock wiring.

3. A way to lightly modify my wiring to use the above-pictured relay.

Or any other advice you might have.

Thanks in advance.

[hazetguy]

try wiring it like this:
turn signal relay wiring
31: ground to body
49: + from + on fuse block (powered only when key is on)
49a: blue wire to turn signal indicator in speedometer, and blk/grn/white to turn signal switch piggybacked on the same terminal.

[2Pack]

[2Pack]

Looks like Stanagon had the same problem a while back:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=51649&highlight=relay

Also, from the wiring diagrams, it looks like the same basic relay is needed going back to 57. On the relay there's one terminal providing 6V, one going out to the turn signal switch, and one providing a ground to the indicator on the spedo.

So what is everyone using for relays? I thought I would find that in a search, but didn't.

[Stanagon]

I also had a similar problem with my '61 bus recently, running 6 volts on this one. The 6 volt relays seem to be harder to find. I tried a few used ones before finally buying a new one.

I bought one of these from Blodgetts.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=394823
The Ideal brand relay has the "K" terminal, a "+" terminal and an "S" terminal and looks stock when installed. It also came with a nice mounting bracket.

There is some more info in this thread on the terminal identification, etc.:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=288275
_________________
Stan's Classic Service, specializing in air-cooled VWs:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=614073

www.stanagon.com


My '61 Mango bus thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=110367
My '64 vert thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=386344
My '71 squareback thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=637709

[dstefun]

[2Pack]

Thanks guys.

Stanagon- looks like we have been going down a similar path here. I had not seen the 268 relay before. I think that will be as good as it gets. I like how the ad says "Yes this flasher does have the (K) terminal!"

Hazetguy- are you having the problem with your turn signal indicator on the spedo being on all the time (if the key is turned on)? Or did you find a way around that?

[Stanagon]

[dstefun]

[hazetguy]

[Stanagon]

Just a follow up.

I drove my bus for the first time in a few days yesterday and I did notice that with the new Ideal relay, the speedo turn signal indicator does operate correctly. It only comes on when I operate the turn signal siwtch or first start the bus.

With the previous relay I had (no K terminal), the speedo indicator was on all the time and flashed when operating the turn signals.

So I'd highly recommend getting the correct relay as mentioned above. It's working great for me in my '61 bus.
_________________
Stan's Classic Service, specializing in air-cooled VWs:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=614073

www.stanagon.com


My '61 Mango bus thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=110367
My '64 vert thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=386344
My '71 squareback thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=637709

[2Pack]

Can anyone confirm or deny that Terminal 15 on the ignition switch should not be connected to ground in the OFF position?

I think I traced my spedo-turn-signal-indicator-light-always-on problem to the ignition switch. The light is always on when the ignition is OFF, but goes off when I turn the ignition to the RUN position (first click). The reason the light is staying on in the OFF position is that Terminal 15 on the ignition switch is connected to ground when it is in the OFF position. When the ignition switch is in the RUN position then 6V are applied at Terminal 15 and there is no potential difference across the indicator light so light goes off.

I'm assuming Terminal 15 should be an open circuit in the off position. Anyone know if that's true? I don't have a spare to test right now. As far as I know the ignition switch I'm using is stock.

This is how I'm wiring up things now:

[2Pack]

Okay, I finally figured out that Terminal 15 on the ignition switch has a path to ground through the oil pressure indicator light bulb and switch, which is how it should be with stock wiring. Therefore, I conclude that I cannot use the commonly available relays with the 49, 49a, and Ground terminals.

I'm going to declare defeat and order the Ideal relay that Stanagon recommends.

I still don't understand how other people are getting the "49, 49a, and Ground" relay to work without the dash light problem. I guess Stanagon and I are just special.

So what relays are you guys using for your 1964 and down buses?

[ToolBox]

[hazetguy]

terminal 15 is not a ground. it is a hot/positive when the key is turned on. i still think you don't have things wired properly.
(i use the common relay, installed as i said, 12V system, on my '59 with otherwise stock wiring arrangement)

here is a pic of the wiring (6V, stock arrangement) in my old '56 standard. i used a Hella relay that had two terminals and a grounding post.

31: ground to body (see wire coming off the top of the can, going to the body)
49: power coming from 2nd fuse from right. powered by terminal 15 off the ignition switch when the key is turned on. in this case i used a black wire with a white tracer.
49a: piggybacked terminal running to the indicator light and to the turn signal switch wire. in this case, the switch has a black wire with white and green tracer, and the indicator wire is blue with a white tracer.

[2Pack]

Okay, now I see what's going on here. There is a subtle design difference in the turn signal circuit for ‘63 and ’64 buses versus the earlier models. Because of this difference, the older models can use the set up you described above, and the ‘63 and ’64 buses cannot without some (minor) modifications to the wiring.

On the earlier models (at least ‘57, '59, '60, and '61 model years, for which wiring diagrams are available on the site) the power to the turn signal relay is switched, so the power to the relay comes from Terminal 15 on the ignition switch (via a fuse).

On ‘63 and ’64 buses the power to the turn signal relay is not switched, so the power to the relay comes directly from the battery (via a fuse).

The reason this matters is that on the older models, when the ignition is OFF, the turn signal indicator light on the spedo has no voltage to either terminal. Whereas, for the ‘63 and ’64 models (wired using hazetguy's method), when the ignition is OFF, the turn signal indicator light in the spedo has 6V on the terminal from the turn signal relay. The other terminal on the light is connected to ground via the oil pressure indicator light and oil pressure indicator switch. So the turn signal indicator light is on all the time when the ignition is OFF for ‘63 and ’64 buses if wired as described above.

So, guys with the ’63 and ’64 stock wiring need to either take the black/white/green wire from the far-right fuse and move it over to the neighboring fuse OR find the correct relay, which I guess is a 63-64 only part. By the way, just because a relay has the “K” terminal mentioned earlier in this thread doesn't mean it is correct because the older relays have a “K” terminal also, but the terminal is wired up differently inside the relay.

On a sidenote, if you have a ’63 or ’64 bus and you move the black/white/green wire then your emergency flashers will only work with the ignition on. I think that's the reason for the difference in the circuit design - in ’63 they added the emergency flasher which I guess is intended to work with the ignition switch off.

Thanks for the help guys. Let me know if you disagree with any of this.

[vdublcab66]

i am converting my 66 crew cab to 12v. i have the black box for my 4 way flashers / signals. i am hoping to avoid the 12v black box, and am wanting to somehow install a hd flasher relay (led signals). can i use older model / newer model relays & switches? what have people done in the past to solve this concern?