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When is B12 not B12?
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deprivation
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:28 pm    Post subject: When is B12 not B12? Reply with quote

I am trying to wire things up so that my aux batt powers the interiors lights and radio. I gleaned that one solution is to tap the aux battery source right to B12. Here's what I did:

1: Disconnected main batt.

2: Found B12. There are two solid red wires on B, one heavy (B11), and one thin, B12. I cut B12.

3: I test continuity between the now-cut B12 wire and the red wire coming off the interior light over the water tank. Continuity. Good. Re-connected the battery and noticed that the clock didn't power up. It did not. Good deal:

4: I wire up my new lights off of the lead coming from the interior lights. Then I connect my aux battery and...nothing. No lights. B12 does not power my interior lights or radio after all. I connect the main battery and...the radio and interior lights work.

It turns out that the only thing B12 powers is the CLOCK, as far as I can tell. What the hell? I mean, I would like to undertand what is happening here. The only thing I can figure is I didn't cut B12 but rather the wire sent power to current track 47. Oh, crap - that's what I did, didn't I? Is that why there was continuity from the cut wire and the lights?

I'm looking at page 97.76 and my brain hurts, but I think that's what happened.

Re-attaching B12 won't be difficult because I actually added more wire in case I wanted to re-connect.

Okay. I'm posting this even though I think I figured out what happened, so maybe somone else can learn from my mistake.
_____________________________________________

Yes, yes, I hear you. You may ask, why do I not just run a line to the cig lighter wire and yank #3 fuse. Well, when I first got my Vanagon, I think I might have powered come gauges off of the cigarette lighter wire including my volt meter. This was a long time ago, and EVERYTHING under the dash was alien to me. And now there is a nearly impenetrable console bolted to the dashbaord. The joke's on me!
______________________________________________

So here's what I'm gonna do. I think. I'm gonna try to find B12 again.

I'm sure it's pretty painful for you people who know what they're doing to read the misadventures of left-brain blunderers such as myself, but at least try to extract some entertaiment out of it. Laughing
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tencentlife
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's definitely not pain I'm experiencing.
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:20 pm    Post subject: Re: When is B12 not B12? Reply with quote

I guess the easy and elegant approach is not good enough?

There is no need to cut any wires or access B11 or B12.
Simply remove fuse 3.
Then put a male spade on the end of a fused feed wire from the aux battery.
Plug the male spade into the lower socket hole where Fuse 3 was pulled from.
DONE

This powers everything that was on fuse 3 with aux battery power on 86-91 Vanagons.

Mark
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deprivation
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:
It's definitely not pain I'm experiencing.

Crap - I was hoping you'd pass on reading this one.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep male spade in fuse 3 works for me too, not sure about your other problem. Confused
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deprivation
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What happened was I sent power to track 47 (or 53, I think, in some Vanagons) which comes off of pin B12 as well.

As for my "other problem", well...I probably shoudln't be working on cars but here we are anyway. Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew, if your aim was to power the interior lights and clock but NOT the dash cig. lighter, then you would want to remove B12 from the back of the fuse panel and patch your aux power in there. But, and I don't know how you're missing this since it's right there in all the '86 diagrams, there are two, count 'em, small-gauge red wires coming off B12. It sounds like you cut and patched into the one that only powers the clock (track 71-to-47 on p.97.76; track 79-to-53 on p.97.93). You would have to cut and then connect to BOTH wires to get the interior lights onto your aux batt power feeder. That is if you want to power clock and lights but NOT the lighter.

If you want to power clock, lights, AND the lighter, of course you know my preferred method for that; direct wire to the lighter. Alternately, you could patch onto B11 behind the fuse panel (not cutting it from the panel connector, just add the aux feeder to it) and remove fuse 3. That powers the lighter along the heavier red B11 wire for the higher current the lighter can draw, while also backfeeding B11 into the panel where it is common with B12 to the clock, lights, etc. This has the same effect as just taking your aux feeder directly to the lighter positive post, you're just connecting to the same circuit in a different place.

Now some prefer just patching into the fuse connector from the front, and that's basically OK and will power clock, lights, and lighter. But, no one acknowledged the other problems you mentioned in your initial post, about having some gauges powered off the back of the lighter and so on. Really, you ought to reroute the power for those items so you're not adding a fudge to a pre-existing kludge. But that being as it is, a decision that is up to you, to accomplish your initial goals as stated you would want to cut and patch into BOTH B12 wires from the back of the panel.

If you decide to repower those other kludged items, here once again is the power map for the panel:

This applies to the late, '86-on fuse panel only:

When you want a power supply for something, there are unused pins on the back of the main relay panel for most anything you'd need. On the left end (installed position), there are 6 pins in two rows labelled "P". These are all #30 pins, battery direct, unswitched, unfused. They are good for fairly heavy consumers. At the other end are ten pins labelled "G". These are hot under various conditions and can be used to power accessories. You can patch into the panel at whichever pins do the job for you by just plugging on a female spade terminal. It is always advisable to use a fuse inline from any power source to protect your device and wiring.

I'll list them according to the diagram. Where power is via a panel fuse, I've noted that with the letter "S". Always verify with a testlight or VOM before hooking up:

G1 & G3- X-bus load-controlled power (hot when ign. on, goes cold when starter operates) via S12
G2 & G5- #15 ignition-switched power via S18 (this is the ideal power source for extra instruments)
G4- D+ (alternator trigger circuit) via alternator warning LED
G6-dead end
G7 -headlights power
G8 -dimmer-controlled panel lighting power (to light your extra gauges)
G9 -parking lights power via S20 (for your low-rider under-chassis lighting, ese!)
G10- hot when windshield washer pump runs (headlamp washers, anyone?)


The reasons I personally don't like patching into the front of the panel via the fuse sockets are that A.) if that's elegant, I have a haircut you might want to try on, and B.) lighter sockets were designed for brief intermittent hi-amp use, but nowadays they get used for all sorts of plug in accessories they weren't designed for, like small inverters, and ganged plugs handling multiple chargers, etc. I would rather have a fused feed with heavy wire and a solid direct connection to safely handle the kind of ongoing use that the socket is more likely to get these days. In my experience you don't want to use more than about 10A thru one of these for very long, so I would fuse the feeder at 10 or use 15 if you have the lights and clock on the same circuit.
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coclimber
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 8:41 pm    Post subject: Re: When is B12 not B12? Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
I guess the easy and elegant approach is not good enough?

There is no need to cut any wires or access B11 or B12.
Simply remove fuse 3.
Then put a male spade on the end of a fused feed wire from the aux battery.
Plug the male spade into the lower socket hole where Fuse 3 was pulled from.
DONE

This powers everything that was on fuse 3 with aux battery power on 86-91 Vanagons.

Mark


Hi!

I just tried this tonight on my '86 Weekender. I put the male spade in the #6 slot (e.g., bottom slot - it is horizontal). It blew 10 and 15 amp fuses. Any ideas? Is #6 slot the correct one? I am running 10 awg from aux to the #3 Fuse slot.

Jason
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just did this mod last week. Pulled #3 fuse, ran 12v from house batt to #3 bottom ( I think, test it with a lamp) and all works.

Dont know what you mean by #6 ?
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

newfisher wrote:
I just did this mod last week. Pulled #3 fuse, ran 12v from house batt to #3 bottom ( I think, test it with a lamp) and all works.

Dont know what you mean by #6 ?


When you look at the old Fuse you pulled out, one of the spades say 6. And, when you look at the Fuse#3 on the fuse box, there are #s. The one on the bottom/horizontal says #6.
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another "I don't understand" here. Sorry.

Which 10A/15A fuse blew? The "new" one on the wire between your aux battery and what you plugged in your fuse panel?
Horizontal? Are you referring to the three spare holders below the panel?

Pictures might help. The only number I see next to fuse #3 is, well, 3...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

[Edit: image of '87 fuse panel replaced by better picture of an '86 fuse panel]
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmranger wrote:
Another "I don't understand" here. Sorry.

Which 10A/15A fuse blew? The "new" one on the wire between your aux battery and what you plugged in your fuse panel?
Horizontal? Are you referring to the three spare holders below the panel?

Pictures might help. The only number I see next to fuse #3 is, well, 3...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

[Edit: image of '87 fuse panel replaced by better picture of an '86 fuse panel]


Yeah. The new ones blew. They were inline on wire going between the aux and the fuse panel.

Thanks for the photo. My phone died tonight Sad In the photo you posted, I basically pulled #43 out. If you pull #43 out. You will see #s imprinted on the fuse panel. There is a 6 on it behind that #43. The slot is horizontal. I put the male spade of my wire into that slot. Is that incorrect? Thanks!
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am I mixing relays and fuses up? Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YES
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kaalualu wrote:
YES


Cripes. LOL. I guess it is getting late. I will resolve this in the A.M.!!
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coclimber wrote:
Am I mixing relays and fuses up?


Your question has been answered, but to drive the point home for others who may be confused as well...

This is not a Vanagon panel so it doesn't have the same relays, but it is a CE1 panel, which the later Vanagons use:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Wink
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, congratulations are in order then. For:
1) figuring it out yourself
2) admitting it
and most of all
3) playing it safe and putting the new fuse in place first
No irony here. Someone I know ( Embarassed ) did something similar WITHOUT the fuse not so long ago, with much more unpleasant results. Live & learn.
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Psyched! It worked! Thanks everyone.

I have uploaded a pic, because a picture is worth a 1000 words!

Now, has anybody had an issue with the spade popping out? It seems reasonably snug and should be even better once the fuse cover is back on.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No popping out on mine. Glad you figured it out
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: When is B12 not B12? Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
I guess the easy and elegant approach is not good enough?

There is no need to cut any wires or access B11 or B12.
Simply remove fuse 3.
Then put a male spade on the end of a fused feed wire from the aux battery.
Plug the male spade into the lower socket hole where Fuse 3 was pulled from.
DONE

This powers everything that was on fuse 3 with aux battery power on 86-91 Vanagons.


Mine already has the GoWesty kit installed. It was done inexpertly, as it turns out, but has been fixed since it's been in my stewardship.

So why doesn't GoWesty or other kit sellers do it this way? Seems like a lot less to screw up and it moves the mods from behind the panel (yikes!) to the front.

Reason I perused this thread is that I managed to short out that circuit yesterday when swapping out the cigar lighter (never took up the habit myself) for a 12v power plug. Took me a while to find that there was a fuse in that new wiring under the driver's seat. /relief

Is the splice method better or does it do something differently than the kit offers?
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