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BUSBOSS
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2009
Posts: 2161
Location: Northern California
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 Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:47 am Post subject: Shhhhh! I can't hear a sound! - My Soundproofing Experience |
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I wanted to share with you my soundproofing experience.
After researching many different products, I decided to go with a butyl based soundproofing material. Given that my family would be sleeping in the bus, I didn't want any asphalt based products that would off gas, smell and possibly melt/fail in the heat.
The product I chose is called BXTII and is made by RAAMaudio. I contacted the owner, Rick McCallum, and we discussed the product and my options. Rick is a great guy and I was impressed with his commitment to his product and his interest in the needs of his customers.
After a POR15 treatment for most areas and a Simple Green / Acetone treatment for others, I was ready to begin. I ordered 3 packs of BXTII, 7 yards of Ensolite MLC closed Cell foam, and 3 cans of V&S spray adhesive.
The package from Rick arrived just as promised and weighed 66 lbs. It arrived like this:
I have to admit that before I began the installation, I was a little concerned about what I had undertaken. I quickly realized that the BXTII was extremely easy to work with.
Installation on the floors and and most panels was very straight forward. I didn't have to use a wooden roller that some other products require. I simply used my hands.
Installation on the front door panels was a little bit more involved. I followed the directions on the RAAM website and the tips that Rick had given me.
RAAM recommends eliminating the vapor barrier. Given the water friendly design of VW bus doors and most cars of that vintage, I followed the RAAM recommendation in part and got a little creative. I first removed the original vapor barriers that were in pretty poor shape. I then applied the BXTII to the interior of the doors. That was followed by the installation of a new 4mil plastic interior vapor barrier. I secured the vapor barrier on the inside of the door with clear waterproof Liquid Nails.
I then covered the large holes in the door panel with aluminum flashing and secured them with self tapping screws. I covered the old speaker location and will be installing the speakers in the kick panels away from the water risk of the door.
I then applied BXTII over the newly installed aluminum panels. I also covered any of the other holes and spaces that did not involved the panel mounts or window/door operation to try and insure a "waterproof" fit. You will notice that I did not cover the entire surface of the panel side of the door as RAAM recommends. I was running low on BXTII at this point so I used it efficiently.
I then applied the Ensolite foam for the finishing touch.
My bus used to sound like an empty Coke can. It is now very very different. There are no tin echoes and the doors close with a solid thud.
I highly recommend RAAMaudio products.
If you contact Rick, please tell him that Mike sent you and mention this site.
Oh and by the way, he is currently having a sale on the BXTII product. Regular price $129. Sale Price $99. 
Here is a link to his webpage:
http://www.raamaudio.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=frontpage&Itemid=59
Good luck and shhhhh!
_________________
All the redemption I can offer, girl, is beneath this dirty hood
1976 Westfalia
1970 Karmann Ghia Convertible (sold - but not forgotten) |
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norcalmike
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2005
Posts: 4784
Location: Marina, CA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| cool. i like it. definitly an upgrade everyone should consider. think how much warmer it will be at night when you are camping too. did you do the roof? |
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BUSBOSS
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2009
Posts: 2161
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:01 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the feedback! 
I added Reflectix all around for thermal insulation.
I did not sound proof the cockpit roof - I ran out of the BXTII material. I did remove the original insulation from the headliner area and replace it with a few layers of Refllectix. I may also line the roof side of the headliner panel with the Ensolite foam because I have lots of that left.
_________________
All the redemption I can offer, girl, is beneath this dirty hood
1976 Westfalia
1970 Karmann Ghia Convertible (sold - but not forgotten) |
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drober23
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2009
Posts: 787
Location: Detroit, MI
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:47 am Post subject: |
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I have been considering this for a while myself. Thanks for the nice write-up!
How much of each product did you buy? How much more of the BXTII material would you have needed to do the parts you skipped with it because you ran short? |
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exvwmd
Samba Member
Joined: February 27, 2006
Posts: 156
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:47 am Post subject: shhhh |
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Was the cost you paid for the intire box you rec'd? $99/129?
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Mary Jane Muggles Lives! |
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jdedini
Samba Member
Joined: January 15, 2009
Posts: 146
Location: Portland, Or
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:04 am Post subject: Re: Shhhhh! I can't hear a sound! - My Soundproofing Experi |
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| drober23 wrote: |
| How much of each product did you buy? |
| BUSBOSS wrote: |
I ordered 3 packs of BXTII, 7 yards of Ensolite MLC closed Cell foam, and 3 cans of V&S spray adhesive.
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Air_Cooled_Nut
Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2004
Posts: 3068
Location: Portland, Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:55 am Post subject: Re: Shhhhh! I can't hear a sound! - My Soundproofing Experi |
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| BUSBOSS wrote: |
I wanted to share with you my soundproofing experience...
I then applied the Ensolite foam for the finishing touch... |
A concern is that when entry into the door is necessary (replace glass, repair body damage, etc.) it will be a real pain with the extra metal in the way. But, hopefully, those times will be far and few  I also see that you covered your fresh air vent in the lower rear corner of the door, thus you won't get any air into the cabin  So the slider won't be necessary in your door panels. Should you decide to make them functional again I strongly recommend you follow the stock vapor barrier set up because it will help keep water from getting in.
I'm curious as to why the recommendation of NOT keeping the vapor barrier. That is a huge no-no on any car! You were correct in keeping it, though easier door access would have the vapor barrier on the cabin side of the door (stock location) and not inside it.
What is the purpose of the Ensolite foam?
What was the criteria you gave for the recommendations you got? Was is just for sound-dampening or was thermal insulation a requirement as well?
You did a nice, thoughtful job. Prep-work and installation, you did a good job and it looks like your efforts will last a long time. Nice Work!! 
_________________
Toby http://www.aircoolednut.com/
Did I mention that I'm an original Darksider?
'72 VW Squareback, 2007cc, GB 5-speed, rag top; '76 VW Riviera Penthouse Sundowner 2.0L; 2015 Audi S5 Cabby w/Stage II APR; '06 Ducati Sport Classic 1000; '14 Ducati Diavel Strada
The First Invasion |
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GusC2it
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Joined: June 23, 2005
Posts: 1376
Location: Orlando, Florida, USA
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BUSBOSS
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2009
Posts: 2161
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| drober23 wrote: |
| How much more of the BXTII material would you have needed to do the parts you skipped with it because you ran short? |
I covered pretty much the entire bus. I would have liked to fully cover the front door panels and done the headliner. I guess that could have been done with another half pack of the BXTII.
_________________
All the redemption I can offer, girl, is beneath this dirty hood
1976 Westfalia
1970 Karmann Ghia Convertible (sold - but not forgotten) |
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BUSBOSS
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2009
Posts: 2161
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:11 am Post subject: |
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_________________
All the redemption I can offer, girl, is beneath this dirty hood
1976 Westfalia
1970 Karmann Ghia Convertible (sold - but not forgotten)
Last edited by BUSBOSS on Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:05 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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exvwmd
Samba Member
Joined: February 27, 2006
Posts: 156
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:21 am Post subject: shhhhh |
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Last post. Whats that you say? Can't hear you
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Mary Jane Muggles Lives! |
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BUSBOSS
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2009
Posts: 2161
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:55 am Post subject: Re: Shhhhh! I can't hear a sound! - My Soundproofing Experi |
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| Air_Cooled_Nut wrote: |
A concern is that when entry into the door is necessary (replace glass, repair body damage, etc.) it will be a real pain with the extra metal in the way. But, hopefully, those times will be far and few > |
You raise a definite concen that I had. In the final calculus, I decided that to achieve the best sound dampening results in those front doors it was worth the additional effort. I hope I'm right about that. I circled the location of the sheet metal screws on the BXTII with permanent marker to ease the removal if necessary in the future.
| Air_Cooled_Nut wrote: |
| I also see that you covered your fresh air vent in the lower rear corner of the door, thus you won't get any air into the cabin So the slider won't be necessary in your door panels. Should you decide to make them functional again I strongly recommend you follow the stock vapor barrier set up because it will help keep water from getting in. |
Although it looks like it in the pictures, the fresh air vents are not covered at all. They have the vapor barrier behind them. The barrier is installed just like the inside portion of the original vapor barrier; the adhesive is in a straight line at the top of the previous opening. I simply eliminated the exterior portion of the barrier since that job is now accomplished by the aluminum panels and the patches of BXTII. The vents will be fully functional.
By the way, those fresh air vents don't draw air into the cabin. They are designed to draw air out.
| Air_Cooled_Nut wrote: |
| I'm curious as to why the recommendation of NOT keeping the vapor barrier. That is a huge no-no on any car! You were correct in keeping it, though easier door access would have the vapor barrier on the cabin side of the door (stock location) and not inside it. |
I was initially put off by this as well. However, the BXTII (if properly applied) serves as a vapor barrier with its butyl backing. That's why I installed just the interior portion of the original vapor barrier as that part could not be accomplished with the BXTII. For more details on the recommended install for door panels see here: http://www.raamaudio.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51&Itemid=56
| Air_Cooled_Nut wrote: |
What is the purpose of the Ensolite foam?
What was the criteria you gave for the recommendations you got? Was is just for sound-dampening or was thermal insulation a requirement as well? |
From the product website:
Using RAAMmat and Ensolite damps vibrations, blocks the transmission of noise and absorbs those randomly bouncing sound waves. By eliminating the sound you don’t want, the sound you do want - or just peace and quiet when you want that - is clearer and less distorted. Since you have reduced the noise with which your sound system has to compete, you will hear more at lower volumes. Sound deadening also reduces the amount of energy lost to vibrations and flex in vehicle panels. This all adds up to less noise, better sound at every volume level and more volume for the power you send to your speakers. All of this is achieved by applying RAAMmat to your vehicle’s sheet metal and trim and then attaching a layer or two of Ensolite foam to the RAAMmat. Simple as that.
I installed Reflectix on top for the thermal properties.
| Air_Cooled_Nut wrote: |
| You did a nice, thoughtful job. Prep-work and installation, you did a good job and it looks like your efforts will last a long time. Nice Work!! |
Thank you very much! 
_________________
All the redemption I can offer, girl, is beneath this dirty hood
1976 Westfalia
1970 Karmann Ghia Convertible (sold - but not forgotten) |
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BUSBOSS
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2009
Posts: 2161
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| GusC2it wrote: |
| Nice work! Please describe the BXTll product with the Aluminium surface. What's it made off, how thick, how applied etc. |
Thanks! I can't recommend this product enough. It is a butyl based product. It has a 4 mil soft aluminum finish (softer aluminum to help prevent cuts while installing unlike some brands). It's about 60 mil thick. The product has a paper backing that easily peels away and allows you to affix the tacky butyl product to the clean surface of your car panels.
Don't hesitate to contact me if you have questions about your own install.
_________________
All the redemption I can offer, girl, is beneath this dirty hood
1976 Westfalia
1970 Karmann Ghia Convertible (sold - but not forgotten) |
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GusC2it
Samba Member
Joined: June 23, 2005
Posts: 1376
Location: Orlando, Florida, USA
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BUSBOSS
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2009
Posts: 2161
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| GusC2it wrote: |
| That is a good product. You can buy it at Lowes or Home depot in the roofing dept. It's also used as a peel and stick underlayment for roofs insted of old tar paper. You can get it in 12" wide or 40" wide rolls. It is also used inside speaker boxes as a vibration dampener. |
Hey Gus- You're right. HD and Lowe's do sell a similar product but it is definitely not the same. The product they sell is asphalt based and designed for roofs not sound dampening. This product is butyl based and designed especially for sound dampening.
Butyl is not asphalt. 
The asphalt stuff is definitely a cheaper option and will do in a pinch I guess - especially if you don't mind your bus smelling like a recently paved highway and your family inhaling that stuff every time they get in.  I guess we each have to make an individual call on the price of health.  I would just hope that it's an informed call or decision.
I for one would be cursing a PO if they had installed that in my bus. 
Did I use enough emoticons in this post?
_________________
All the redemption I can offer, girl, is beneath this dirty hood
1976 Westfalia
1970 Karmann Ghia Convertible (sold - but not forgotten) |
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Air_Cooled_Nut
Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2004
Posts: 3068
Location: Portland, Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| BUSBOSS wrote: |
Hey Gus- You're right. HD and Lowe's do sell a similar product but it is definitely not the same. The product they sell is asphalt based and designed for roofs not sound dampening. This product is butyl based and designed especially for sound dampening.
Butyl is not asphalt.
The asphalt stuff is definitely a cheaper option and will do in a pinch I guess ... |
Ah, but it won't do in a pinch because it IS different and used for different purposes!!
_________________
Toby http://www.aircoolednut.com/
Did I mention that I'm an original Darksider?
'72 VW Squareback, 2007cc, GB 5-speed, rag top; '76 VW Riviera Penthouse Sundowner 2.0L; 2015 Audi S5 Cabby w/Stage II APR; '06 Ducati Sport Classic 1000; '14 Ducati Diavel Strada
The First Invasion |
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Batan
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2003
Posts: 1637
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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I will be doing my bus as well, minus the roof. I'm wondering how does this compare to B-Quiet(similar to Dynamat) I used on my Ghia:
B-Quiet is really easy to work with and the cost is $85 for 50 sq.ft. vs. $100(on sale) for 30sq.ft..
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'03 20th Anniversary GTI
'74 Super Beetle
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GusC2it
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Joined: June 23, 2005
Posts: 1376
Location: Orlando, Florida, USA
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Lucas Grams
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Joined: July 19, 2005
Posts: 399
Location: watsonville
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| Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Butyl is butyl huh? Roofing and soundproofing. Any personal experience? |
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BUSBOSS
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2009
Posts: 2161
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| GusC2it wrote: |
The rolled roofing is made from rubberized "Butyl" in a polypropylene mesh. Butyl is made from the higher "cracking" of crude oil. It is a synthetic rubber, like Neoprene only softer. The roofing is classed as non-hazardous. It comes with soft Aluminum coating or not. Im just trying to save you guys some money. It's the same stuff. Go sniff some at Lowes. Here's one manufacturer.
http://www.roofer911.com/roofs-peel-seal.htm |
Gus-
I clicked on the link you provided and here is what the product information said: "The sheet features multiple laminations of specialized aluminum foil, high density polymer films and a thick layer of rubberized asphalt waterproofing compound. . . Rubberized asphalt will not crack or dry, which is one advantage to Peel & Seal."
I could be wrong but I think that means it contains asphalt.
Rubberized asphalt may contain butyl (that's what makes it rubberized) but it also contains asphalt. A quick and easy way to test is to soak a small sample in a glass containing acetone. If the liquid turns black then you've got asphalt in there. I have yet to see a "Peal & Seal" product without asphalt at my local hardware outlets.
FYI
You also want to be cognizant of the thickness of the product so that it maximizes the sound dampening properties. Many roofing products, in addition to containing asphalt, are thinner.
Why should you choose butyl rubber over asphalt?
Butyl rubber is more reliable than asphalt.
Butyl is pliable at low temperatures and can be applied to a variety of building materials at temperatures 30°F to 180°F. Asphalt becomes brittle below 40°F, reducing the ability to stick to surfaces.
Butyl has high cohesive strength and structural integrity that support the adhesive at elevated temperatures as high as 200°F. Asphalt has a narrow temperature range and often will ooze at elevated temperatures.
Butyl rubber adhesive contains no asphalts, VOCs (volatile organic compounds) or solvents. Asphalts can react with the solvents in caulk and sealant compounds, causing degradation of both products, which compromises the seal integrity reducing water resistance.
My bottom line: Whatever product you decide to use, please just make sure you avoid asphalt ingredients. I have gained a lot of knowledge from others on Samba and I was just sharing my positive experience with one of many available products in hopes that someone might find it useful.
_________________
All the redemption I can offer, girl, is beneath this dirty hood
1976 Westfalia
1970 Karmann Ghia Convertible (sold - but not forgotten) |
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