rocker arm spray bar

[miniman82]

Corvairs have tiny holes in the tips of the pushrods, so they lube the valve gear but only once a revolution.
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Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747

[yamaducci]

I am designing a set of spray bars as parts of my on-going 2498cc Turbo re-design, parts collection and re-build over the last 2 years.
There should be pictures in my build thread over the next month or so as I have time after adding Cooling fins to the CE Heads.
It should be more help as I sort through the several designs I have come up with. They should work great in my hot running not-well thought out needle-rocker engine.
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-John Cox
My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697

3rd Brake Light Safety Stars- I still have a couple with blue light left. Email me if interested.

[TomSimon]

Bill Steiner of Autocraft fame might have been one of the first guys to use spraybars on the VW midget engines he used to build for his customers.

When he designed and built the then revolutionary Autocraft 910 Pro Series head, in the late 80's-early 90's, he supplied all of the heads with a provision to add a spray bar, if the customer wanted to run them. My 910 heads, and every other set I've seen, all have the same plugs in the same location, on the valve cover rail). I've only seen one dragracer, an Autocraft engine back in the mid-90's, use spraybars, though. You might find some pictures on the internet.

The thing you need to know is this, most every successful VW midget engine was a dry sump engine, with one stage dedicated to scavenging oil from both heads, and returning it to the oil tank. Sliding up the cushion in all left-hand-turns, I imagine filling the 3-4 side was not an issue, rather, filling the 1-2 side was! Uncovering the oil pick up was always a problem, so most of them converted to dry sump oiling. These guys were racing 2-3 night/week in the midwest, 25 and 50 lap main events, and didn't want to change vavle springs all of the time. In that case, it was a good idea to have a spray bar piss oil the valve springs to cool them, which makes them last longer (to a lesser degree, onto the needle bearing rocker arms that Autocraft also manufactured).

You could still use a spray bar to achieve the same thing with a wet sump system, but you'd have to experiment with scavenging. For drag racing and 8k rpms, I've tried returning oil to the sump from the heads using gravity via -8 hose, with limited success. I ultimately found that using an Autocraft stage-and-a-half wet sump oil pump is the way to have your cake, and eat it too, with limited complexity (not as much as a full-on dry sump system, that is). You use the 1/2 stage to scavenge oil from the heads, and return it to the sump. Buuuuuuttt... their is no free lunch, as it takes some hp to pump more oil volume, out to the bearings and sparaybars, and to return it to the wet sump of dry sump oil tank. No there's SUMPthing to think about

[modok]

Darn right
I was looking at this data from PEP, they had the friction from the average v-8 charted out, the oil pump and water pump friction was near equal to the friction from the rings. Bearing friction was very low in comparison.

Smaller oil pump and fancy rings are for sure the best way to reduce friction.
I never understood why so many run roller cam bearings till I realized that you hardly have to lube a roller bearing. Less oil pumped and flying around gives more hp, even though roller bearings actually have MORE friction than plain bearings.

[fastone]

Tom don't take this wrong, Just thought I would clear up a few things.

Auto-Craft midget engines never scavenged valve covers, you would need a 4 stage pump for that.
As you can't tee scavenge lines.

And yes I know Bill worked for for him for 12 years are so.

[yamaducci]

Tom brings up a good point and the reason I have considered running the spray bars in my Competition Eliminator head Engine. As many know they run hot with 6 fins even in an open engine-bay buggy. The real problem I am trying to solve with the use of the spray bars; other than reducing heat in the spring area, is to lube the Autocraft needle rockers. These bearings/shafts have only seen a total of 500 miles of street driving and a few trips down the strip yet they have pitted the shaft on the 1/2 side. Now I am not positive when the most damage is occuring since I am running K800 Springs. Is it at idle and low RPM when no real oil-splashing is occurring or is it under higher RPM load with still not enough oil flow?
I suspect that since the 3/4 side did not have issues and normally fills with oil under load, that the 1/2 side is seeing it's damage at high RPM and heavy load with lack of oil flow. It may be only necessary to spray the 1/2 side or spray both side once the pressure reaches a certain PSI or RPM load. For reference I am running a 1.5 stage Bugpack dry sump this time. I also have photos of my rocker arm modification to get more oil to the bearings. If interested take a look at my gallery. I have not mocked up the spray bars.
_________________
-John Cox
My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697

3rd Brake Light Safety Stars- I still have a couple with blue light left. Email me if interested.

[yamaducci]

Found this pic from Turbotom on shoptalkforums.
The spray bars use .040" holes
I would like to know how the -3 fitting connects with the brake line tube and how it is terminated at the other side not shown.

_________________
-John Cox
My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697

3rd Brake Light Safety Stars- I still have a couple with blue light left. Email me if interested.

[TomSimon]

[shag55]

Good stuff here! I have a set of Autocraft heads for my unlimited street motor and have though of setting up a spray bar on the 1/2 side to help in cooling the springs as well as the heads themselves. With this being a street/race project keeping the temps down in the heads is a priority. I had Mike build me a 2.5 stg pump for this project. I will likely use a rather large oil tank as I can since the more heat is drawn out of the heads the hotter the oil temps will run as I have seen this with the porsche squirters as well. I have a vary efficient PWR oil cooler as well. Though with such a large oil reserve it may need I add a oil heater as well.
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[TomSimon]

John, the other very important thing you need to know, beside how the other end is terminated, is if AC used an in-line restricter orifice to limit oil flow to the spray bars. I bet Fastone can tell us.

The reason I mention restricter is this story; A good buddy of my had a normally aspirated V6 built for his sandrail from mix-n-match of old NASCAR Busch or ARCA Series parts he bought off ebay. (high-nickle bow tie block, Moldex crank, Carrillo rods, race heads, T&D rockers, roller lifters, Belt drive, the whole enchilada) The important part: The heads had spray bar bars in them already, sounded like a good idea to use them. On my advice, he had S&S in San Leandro do the final machining and complicated engine build for him.

We took it out to sand mountain for it's maiden voyage, but the oil pressure would drop to almost nill after a 15second, 100mph blast up the mountain. Oil pressure would return after making our turn, and coast for a little way.

During the engine's first 'well baby check up', S&S found that the rod bearings were smeared and about to expire, but everything else looked happy. We talked about the symtoms, possible causes, bounced ideas around. It turns out the spray bar feed lines were supposed to have a brass restricter jet in them. Once installed, life got good, REAL GOOD! The thing makes 400hp and is a blast!

[yamaducci]

Yes, I agree, I have considered the restrictor from a turbo oiler line, a Porsche piston oil squireter embeded in a manifold block as well as a good old fashioned control valve from a type 1 in a manifold block with variable adjustment spring pressure.
_________________
-John Cox
My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697

3rd Brake Light Safety Stars- I still have a couple with blue light left. Email me if interested.

[RockCrusher]

The spray bar can be silver soldered into a steel fitting. I would think the far end was just capped shut. Could be threaded and a tiny set screw installed. .040 holes seem a bit big to me (but then I have no frame of reference either). I would think .030 should be plenty big and shouldn't really need a regulating device. I'm thinking that a simple on/off regular spring (I guess like the Porsche oiler) actuated at higher pressures would make idle pressure normal. Just some thoughts on my part.

RC
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[yamaducci]

I was thinking sil/phos would do it. What about stainless line and Aluminum -3AN fitting? I like the threaded plug end idea since I was thinking about just drilling a "detent" hole in the head and resting the end of the tube in there. It would allow future cleanings as well.
Another simple termination would be to crimp the end and solder like; production spray bars.
.040 Holes seem large to me but that was quoted by Turbo Tom. I would think if you were going for multi-angles like spring and rocker arm then smaller holes would be best. I will find out as I mock it up and test.
_________________
-John Cox
My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697

3rd Brake Light Safety Stars- I still have a couple with blue light left. Email me if interested.

[RockCrusher]

[yamaducci]

That's actually what I planned to do; Great minds think alike eh Paul.
_________________
-John Cox
My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697

3rd Brake Light Safety Stars- I still have a couple with blue light left. Email me if interested.

[RockCrusher]

[fastone]

Sorry for the delay don't get over here very often, There was never a inline restricter
ifrk the holes were .040 #3 line and silver soldered on the ends.

Keep in mind that all Auto-Craft engines where dry sumped with 30mm primary gears.

Tom: you might get away with a tee in drag racing but in circle track it would
suck air on the inside head rather than oil. It's also a know fact you can't tee scanvage lines.

John: if your haveing trouble with rocker shafts the heat treat is bad, I have never seen
the bearings eat any shafts, also you can drill those rockers for oiling screws.
I have done this, but only to helps oil the guides, With no hole oil in the screws oil only
comes out when there's lash.

Also in that pic we sprayed the springs not the shaft the holes in that bar are upside down
from the way we made them.

hope this's helps...

[fusca66]

What level of oil inside of cover valve in high RPM? Times ago I see one video with RPM x level of oil inside cover valve, but I dont remember where I see now...someone see this video? Have one window (acrilic or glass) in the cover valve and can see the level of oil.... I don't know if this topic is correct here :roll:
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[yamaducci]

[58Dub]