| Author |
Message |
wayne1230cars
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010
Posts: 2704
Location: Canada
|
 Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:39 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| glutamodo wrote: |
I still have stale air in my 62 bug... it's not great but it's not horrible either. I wouldn't want to drive in stop/start traffic in a blizzard though. I do have an assist blower inline on the driver side which helps keep the windshield clearer in such conditions. I did notice a noticable improvement once I put the original style throttle ring thermostat system back in. However I do remember one highway trip I made one night in the late 90s in eastern Montana, it was -25 degrees outside and in the car it was only like 20 above, I had to bundle up pretty tight there! But I don't drive my bugs in those conditions very much anymore though, that's what my 85 Golf is for.
I've been able to let my stale air idle though and still get some heat inside, I did it just yesterday evening. You need to have a thick bump-stop on the throttle ring if you run the thermostat though! A missing or thin bumper cuts off too much air to get much out of the heater. |
I had not considered that detail. I do run a thermostat with the thin bump-stop. Notice the May 6, 1961 change. Small changes over the years in the heating system made for a more efficient system.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
EverettB 
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 71792
Location: Phoenix 602
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wayne1230cars
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010
Posts: 2704
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| EverettB wrote: |
Hmmm, I was not aware that was a 1961 change.
it must have been retroactive because I've seen quite a few throttle rings with the thicker stop. |
This pic was in the gallery.
Are they the later thicker style? I think so. It certainly would have been a very quick and inexpensive change to make if it improved cooling and heating function. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dangermouse
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1323
Location: Beautiful New Zealand
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| drscope wrote: |
But when I advanced to the fresh air heaters of the 40 horse stuff, we discovered the bilge pump blowers could be adapted under the back seat!
That gave you plenty of heat! I had a 63 with 2 of those and you couldn't run them both at the same time because it just got way too hot in the car. |
Anybody know of a source for said bilge blowers? in 6V??
_________________
Do not follow me, for I may not lead. Do not lead me, for I may not follow. Do not walk beside me either; actually just bugger off and stand over there will you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
drscope
Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2007
Posts: 15273
Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Check your local boat supply house! There may still be some 6 volt stuff running around in the boating industry.
_________________
Mother Nature is a Mean Evil Bitch! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dungbeetle07
Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2007
Posts: 86
Location: TN
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Who sells the best fresh air box's now?
_________________
No matter how thorough the plan
Or how careful the execution
Somebody saw you do it |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
glutamodo
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26586
Location: Douglas, WY
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| EverettB wrote: |
Hmmm, I was not aware that was a 1961 change.
it must have been retroactive ... |
the manual, while it says the plug can be service installed, doesn't say that it had to be so - it doesn't even give the reason for the change. I know I've read more about it somewhere but can't find it.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EverettB
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 71792
Location: Phoenix 602
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| wayne1230cars wrote: |
| EverettB wrote: |
Hmmm, I was not aware that was a 1961 change.
it must have been retroactive because I've seen quite a few throttle rings with the thicker stop. |
This pic was in the gallery.
Are they the later thicker style? I think so. It certainly would have been a very quick and inexpensive change to make if it improved cooling and heating function. |
Yes, that is the thick style.
_________________
How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints"
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
herbie1200
Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2006
Posts: 836
Location: Rome - Italy
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
Main difference is between pre-67 engine (thermostat act on a ring on the fan) and post-67 (thermostat acts on flaps in the fan shroud).
Explain: when engine is still cold (thermostat not fully open) on pre-67 engine the ring "chockes" all the air incoming and just a little air is pumped into the car.
Instead, on post-67 engine, with engine cold and thermostat closed, only flaps toward cylinder is closed, and a full air flow is pumped to heat passenger area. More engine is cold, more thermostat closes flaps, and more air is available for heating. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
andk5591
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 16805
Location: State College, PA
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
Just throwing somthing out there - I dont drive our bugs much when its really cold. I've gone thru the complete heating systems in both our 65 (1200cc) and 61 (1600cc). Both are fresh air systems. New GOOD heat exchangers, good hoses, etc. Neither have thermostats. After about a 20 minute drive when around 30 outside, the 65 has more heat than I can use. The 61 is marginal and yeah - I did the mod to the levers to have them open the whole way (Thanks Andy).
I attribute the difference to the Y tubes under the rear seats. Now, something that I saw in an early bug once was a mod (some kind of kit) that retrofitted Y tubes and dual heater controls. Was pretty cool and looked well designed.
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone 1914. Ex wifes car.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Ex-wifes car.
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EverettB
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 71792
Location: Phoenix 602
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
79SuperVert
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 9757
Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| herbie1200 wrote: |
| ...when engine is still cold (thermostat not fully open) on pre-67 engine the ring "chockes" all the air incoming and just a little air is pumped into the car. |
I just learned something new today. Thanks!
_________________
Central Jersey VW Society
Wanted: Art Collins VW (Savannah, Georgia) items - license plate surrounds and other items. Also ivory "AM", "FM" and "SW" buttons for a US Blaupunkt Frankfurt. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 36213
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| In fact, that may be one of the primary reasons for the change to "fresh air" heating, in addition to solving the fumes issue. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
79SuperVert
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 9757
Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
But then I wouldn't be able to perform my little after-drive ritual where I open the hood and feel behind the shroud to make sure the air control ring is open and therefore working. 
_________________
Central Jersey VW Society
Wanted: Art Collins VW (Savannah, Georgia) items - license plate surrounds and other items. Also ivory "AM", "FM" and "SW" buttons for a US Blaupunkt Frankfurt. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Snort
Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2005
Posts: 1975
Location: Seattle, WA
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 79SuperVert wrote: |
| But then I wouldn't be able to perform my little after-drive ritual where I open the hood and feel behind the shroud to make sure the air control ring is open and therefore working. |
Please, you're exposing us all to the ridicule of normal people who have no rational basis to understand our peculiar obsessions. 
I think it's a bit entertaining to see all of the fears come out about the stale air heaters. I think a lot of it comes from the contrast in the two names, stale and fresh air which seems like a bit of a misnomer. Is my heating air stale because it comes from the heads instead of the exhaust pipe? Only if my combustion chambers are leaking, but then if your exhaust system is leaking then what's the difference? Both systems can give you a headache if they aren't working properly.
There is always an in-between step you could take where you have fresh air heat exchangers and control ring thermostat. VW did that for a short run in early 1963. Yes, I realize you won't get total air flow into your heaters when the thermostat is closed, but you could still have fun checking your air ring, until you figure out how to install a video cam back there so you can see it from the driver's seat. Don't tell me you haven't thought about that! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
glutamodo
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26586
Location: Douglas, WY
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Snort wrote: |
There is always an in-between step you could take where you have fresh air heat exchangers and control ring thermostat. VW did that for a short run in early 1963. ! |
That's wrong, early 63 was still stale air. They did that from Mid December 1962 until August 1964 - that's 19 1/2 months.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Snort
Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2005
Posts: 1975
Location: Seattle, WA
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| glutamodo wrote: |
| Snort wrote: |
There is always an in-between step you could take where you have fresh air heat exchangers and control ring thermostat. VW did that for a short run in early 1963. ! |
That's wrong, early 63 was still stale air. They did that from Mid December 1962 until August 1964 - that's 19 1/2 months. |
OK, so facts are facts and dates are dates, but to what end? If you're out to correct minutia, you missed one up above regarding all pre-67's having control rings. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
79SuperVert
Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 9757
Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Snort wrote: |
| ...figure out how to install a video cam back there so you can see it from the driver's seat. Don't tell me you haven't thought about that! |
Uh-uh. Wouldn't be stock. 
_________________
Central Jersey VW Society
Wanted: Art Collins VW (Savannah, Georgia) items - license plate surrounds and other items. Also ivory "AM", "FM" and "SW" buttons for a US Blaupunkt Frankfurt. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wayne1230cars
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010
Posts: 2704
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| herbie1200 wrote: |
Main difference is between pre-67 engine (thermostat act on a ring on the fan) and post-67 (thermostat acts on flaps in the fan shroud).
Explain: when engine is still cold (thermostat not fully open) on pre-67 engine the ring "chockes" all the air incoming and just a little air is pumped into the car.
Instead, on post-67 engine, with engine cold and thermostat closed, only flaps toward cylinder is closed, and a full air flow is pumped to heat passenger area. More engine is cold, more thermostat closes flaps, and more air is available for heating. |
I wondered about the date on this regarding the change from throttle ring to flaps. I was looking through a British based VW book that I have, and it stated that the thermostat "throttle ring" was used right up to the 1500cc engines in the 1967 model year. Perhaps someone who is more familiar with the European beetle specifications can confirm this. The date of the change for the USA/Canada beetles is well documented. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
herbie1200
Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2006
Posts: 836
Location: Rome - Italy
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
wayne,
the exact date for me is not the principal issue, my interest is on the technical aspect.
Perhaps there were differences between US and/or European version, and between 1200 and 1500 engines.
I add a bit to pre-post '67 thermostat operation: on pre-67, the ring chockes all the air catched by the fan, so also oil cooler is less vented and engine warming up is improved. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
