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JoshG
Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2005
Posts: 189
Location: Boston, MA
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 Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:38 am Post subject: "Hot start" problem with a twist |
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So I am familiar with the well documented "hot start" problem. In fact, I even installed the relay kit offered here on the Samba, which works great. However, recently, I have been having trouble starting my van under the follwoing condiitons: After it has been running for awhile (approx. 40 min or so seems to be enough). If I shut it down and try to restart soon there after it sounds like the battery is nearly dead. It barely turns over and soon stops all together. Battery is literally brand new, starter is newer (year or two).
Seems to be a variation on the classic hot start problem. Somewhere in the starting circuit is overheating and causing massive resistance. I checked and cleaned all the key terminals I can think of: battery, starter, ground at transmission.
Any thoughts and suggestions would be greatly appreciated. |
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presslab
Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1730
Location: Sonoma County
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:15 am Post subject: Re: "Hot start" problem with a twist |
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| JoshG wrote: |
| If I shut it down and try to restart soon there after it sounds like the battery is nearly dead. It barely turns over and soon stops all together. Battery is literally brand new, starter is newer (year or two). |
Does the engine turn over but with a hiccup? If so, it could be a leaking fuel injector.
Is the starter new or a Bosch rebuild? I had problems with a Bosch rebuild that it would turn over slowly, especially when warm. I exchanged it for another and it's been fantastic.
Did you replace the starter bushing, if manual transaxle?
_________________
1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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JoshG
Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2005
Posts: 189
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| The starter is a reman. and I did replace the little copper looking bushing when I installed the starter. The first few starts of the day are not vigorous but it does start. When it gets "hot" and fails, it turns over very slowly and then stops turning over at all. |
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presslab
Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1730
Location: Sonoma County
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:25 am Post subject: |
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How do the ends of the battery cable look? Are they corroded? The wire itself can corrode as well, it can be hidden under the insulation.
What year is your van? The later years used a larger battery cable. While a larger cable will help, it likely isn't your problem.
Some tests to run when it's hot and someone else is craking the engine: Measure the battery voltage, voltage at the starter, and the starter current with a clamp-on ammeter.
_________________
1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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JoshG
Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2005
Posts: 189
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| presslab wrote: |
How do the ends of the battery cable look? Are they corroded? The wire itself can corrode as well, it can be hidden under the insulation.
What year is your van? The later years used a larger battery cable. While a larger cable will help, it likely isn't your problem.
Some tests to run when it's hot and someone else is craking the engine: Measure the battery voltage, voltage at the starter, and the starter current with a clamp-on ammeter. |
It's a '91 and the cable ends are clean. I was thinking it might be the positive cable too but it doesn't really seem likely. More likely the reman. starter going bad: does it sound like a starter going bad?
Thanks for your suggestions. |
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joseph928
Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2011
Posts: 2114
Location: flagstaff az.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:25 pm Post subject: hot start |
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does it sound like a starter going bad?
 YES!  bad rebuild! But you still need to check out the cables for voltage drop first!
_________________
1987 syncro westy tin top sun roof , GW2.3, rear locker, decoupler, Gary Lee tire rack & winch mount, lift, south african grill, big brakes , rhein alloy ,15 BFG AT, Fiamma 10 foot awning ,140 watt rear 85 watt front solar , mppt, truckfridge, automatic fire extinguishing system, tencent oil cooler, And a RMW SS exhaust! - 1971 bug convertible 1776 engine- 2010 Subaru turbo - 1993 Toyota 4x4 truck - 1999 Harley 95 CI, big bore, Andrews cams . Also 80-84- vans. Stock 65 sunroof bug. |
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Munroman
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2008
Posts: 19
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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I had similar, it turned out that the so called 'guru' who had changed the bush had burred the end when fitting it, so when things heated up it was putting resistance on the starter spindle.
I cleaned it up with a little round file and all was good. |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 23022
Location: Northwest of Normal
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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Timing too advanced?
_________________
Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
Those who can- do.
Those who can't? Subaru. |
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JoshG
Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2005
Posts: 189
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Munroman wrote: |
I had similar, it turned out that the so called 'guru' who had changed the bush had burred the end when fitting it, so when things heated up it was putting resistance on the starter spindle.
I cleaned it up with a little round file and all was good. |
Interesting. How in the world did you ever figure that one out? So the little copper looking bushing was distorted enough to limit the spinning force of the starter motor?
Certainly easy enough to check out! |
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JoshG
Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2005
Posts: 189
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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Well, it was indeed the starter motor gong south! Thanks for everyones' suggestions. I installed a new one yesterday.
The GOOD news is that Autozone replaced it under warranty without question; could not have been any easier. The BAD news is the thing was only about a year and half old so it instills little confidence in the Durlast product. (They may need to change the name to Sortalast or something). |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 23022
Location: Northwest of Normal
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| JoshG wrote: |
Well, it was indeed the starter motor gong south! Thanks for everyones' suggestions. I installed a new one yesterday.
The GOOD news is that Autozone replaced it under warranty without question; could not have been any easier. The BAD news is the thing was only about a year and half old so it instills little confidence in the Durlast product. (They may need to change the name to Sortalast or something). |
I always had to laugh at the Sears DieHard, because when they died, well...
_________________
Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
Those who can- do.
Those who can't? Subaru. |
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wunderbarVW
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2011
Posts: 41
Location: Polk County Florida
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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Im having a similar issue....new battery, new starter and alternator, and when I try to start it...the negative battery terminal gets really hot..like you i cleaned all the grounds I could find...including the one at the transmission. If I hook up another car to jump it off it will start no problem, but once the van is on its own it will turn over kinda slow...and eventually the battery acts like it is dead....I have no clue what the problem is...I was thinking maybe a starter relay??
_________________
81 Vanagon
"VW's don't leak oil...they leave their mark."
"VW: 0-60...EVENTUALLY!"
"If Chuck Norris couldn't fly, he would drive a VW"
"The only good thing about Hitler= the VW" |
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JoshG
Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2005
Posts: 189
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| wunderbarVW wrote: |
| Im having a similar issue....new battery, new starter and alternator, and when I try to start it...the negative battery terminal gets really hot..like you i cleaned all the grounds I could find...including the one at the transmission. If I hook up another car to jump it off it will start no problem, but once the van is on its own it will turn over kinda slow...and eventually the battery acts like it is dead....I have no clue what the problem is...I was thinking maybe a starter relay?? |
Sounds exactly like the problem I was having right down to the ground wire getting very hot. It was a bad starter which was only 1.5 yrs. old! |
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wunderbarVW
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2011
Posts: 41
Location: Polk County Florida
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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interesting. I bought the new sparter almost exactly 1 year ago...but since I havent driven the van much i consider it to still be new. The van has been started maybe 20 times tops in the past year...what made you go back and recheck the starter? How did you know the starter was bad?
_________________
81 Vanagon
"VW's don't leak oil...they leave their mark."
"VW: 0-60...EVENTUALLY!"
"If Chuck Norris couldn't fly, he would drive a VW"
"The only good thing about Hitler= the VW" |
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Ahwahnee
Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010
Posts: 10283
Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| JoshG wrote: |
Well, it was indeed the starter motor gong south! Thanks for everyones' suggestions. I installed a new one yesterday.
The GOOD news is that Autozone replaced it under warranty without question; could not have been any easier... |
I have that same starter from AZ. Were they able to test it and confirm the problem or did they simply accept your explanation that it would not start well when hot? |
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JoshG
Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2005
Posts: 189
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| wunderbarVW wrote: |
| interesting. I bought the new sparter almost exactly 1 year ago...but since I havent driven the van much i consider it to still be new. The van has been started maybe 20 times tops in the past year...what made you go back and recheck the starter? How did you know the starter was bad? |
I didn't. In fact, I was quite sure it was not the starter since it was only a year a half old! But, I ran out of options. Finally, I just pulled it out brought it to AutoZone, told them I needed a new one, which they gave me no questions asked, put it in; problem solved! I certainly hope this one last a little bit longer. |
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