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MidwestDrifter
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2012
Posts: 769
Location: Kicking Around Australia
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 Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:42 am Post subject: |
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I was thinking the same thing! To the untrained eye often minor failures can seem catastrophic. If the scenario is as tencent describes you have a very real chance of getting this problem solved in situ, or maybe with a few Fed-Ex parts. |
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drivenachodrive
Samba Member
Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 152
Location: Flagstaff
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Well, looks like Tencent was right on the money.
I took off the bell housing and found the following:
The stud that used to be connected to the main shaft was fully screwed into its mating shaft inside of the transmission, leaving no threads exposed to attach to the main shaft (does not appear to be broken, but I can't unthread it either). The sleeve that connects the two shafts was sitting in the bottom of the transmission along with the (undamaged) circlip, and the destroyed spring from the inside of the main oil seal.
The pilot bearing is nowhere to be seen. Pieces of metal are floating around in the bottom of the transmission; presumably these used to be the bearing. There's nothing left. The transmission fluid remaining in the bottom of the unit is peppered with substantial metal dust. Not sure if this indicates more damage within, or if it could have all come from the bearing and the subsequent severe scoring of the main shaft.
Additionally, the oil slinger is very loose, and the orifice into which it used to be press-fit is now very wollered out. There will be no way to peen the surface to make it a press fit again, so it must either be JB welded or something else.
I'm not sure how the gears are supposed to feel when spinning them manually (how much play, how hard to turn, etc). I suppose if I bring it into a specialist I may have to have them go through the whole thing to ensure that nothing else is wrong (ticking time bomb).
In the meantime, a reader of our blog has offered to have a transmission rebuilt in San Diego and sent down to us. He has offered to pay for the transmission and rebuild, and all I would have to pay is the shipping. I'm currently investigating how to do this, although I have found that I have to hire a customs brokerage to import the unit for me. Shipping and customs brokerage might put the cost prohibitively high, in which case we'd still be stuck with the local "experts". I'm still very hesitant to bring it to a local mechanic, as each of the 5 recommended mechanics we've used since we started our trip turned out to be a total hack having no idea what they were doing.
We'll see how this goes. Fingers are crossed that we can get the imported unit. Thanks for the continued help. This forum truly is the greatest place to go for expert help!
Brad
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crazyvwvanman
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Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 10365
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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The pilot bearing is inside the end of the crankshaft and pieces of it can't get inside the tranny. As strange as it seems, the only bearing that the input shaft directly contacts is that pilot bearing, at the very tip of the shaft where it inserts into the end of the crankshaft. The other end is supported only by that splined sleeve that bridges it with the real tranny mainshaft. The threaded stud holds the ends of the shafts close together but the sleeve is what really supports that end of the input shaft. You would think that there would be a support bearing near the seal but there isn't any.
Hopefully that metal inside is just from the shaft grinding away at the oil slinger.
Mark
| drivenachodrive wrote: |
Well, looks like Tencent was right on the money.
I took off the bell housing and found the following:
The stud that used to be connected to the main shaft was fully screwed into its mating shaft inside of the transmission, leaving no threads exposed to attach to the main shaft (does not appear to be broken, but I can't unthread it either). The sleeve that connects the two shafts was sitting in the bottom of the transmission along with the (undamaged) circlip, and the destroyed spring from the inside of the main oil seal.
The pilot bearing is nowhere to be seen. Pieces of metal are floating around in the bottom of the transmission; presumably these used to be the bearing. There's nothing left. The transmission fluid remaining in the bottom of the unit is peppered with substantial metal dust. Not sure if this indicates more damage within, or if it could have all come from the bearing and the subsequent severe scoring of the main shaft.
Additionally, the oil slinger is very loose, and the orifice into which it used to be press-fit is now very wollered out. There will be no way to peen the surface to make it a press fit again, so it must either be JB welded or something else. ............. |
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Destructo
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2006
Posts: 407
Location: Westhampton, MA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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Yes to the above.
Brad, go ahead and look at the flywheel on your engine. Now poke your finger in the middle where the transmission pilot shaft would go. I'll bet you'll find a buch of little roller bearings floating around in there. Here is thread that Ben posted a good picture of what you're supposed to be looking at (flywheel removed.)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=401218&highlight=pilot+bearing
Now, go to the Forums search. Type in Pilot Bearing, select vanagon forums, and select title only. A handful of great threads on how to get the old pilot bearing out will come up. We're all routing for you. 
Eddie in Phoenix
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tencentlife
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10147
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
The pilot bearing is inside the end of the crankshaft and pieces of it can't get inside the tranny. As strange as it seems, the only bearing that the input shaft directly contacts is that pilot bearing, at the very tip of the shaft where it inserts into the end of the crankshaft. The other end is supported only by that splined sleeve that bridges it with the real tranny mainshaft. The threaded stud holds the ends of the shafts close together but the sleeve is what really supports that end of the input shaft. You would think that there would be a support bearing near the seal but there isn't any.
Hopefully that metal inside is just from the shaft grinding away at the oil slinger.
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Right, that's exactly the distinction I was trying to make for Brad in my last comment. There is no intermediate pilot shaft bearing where the pilot shaft goes thru the forward wall of the bellhousing, the wall that separates the clutch cavity from the final drive cavity.
| El Rey de Nacho wrote: |
| The pilot bearing is nowhere to be seen. Pieces of metal are floating around in the bottom of the transmission; presumably these used to be the bearing. There's nothing left. |
OK, here's where we really need to be clear about which part is which. You could be saying one of two things here:
1. That the actual main gear shaft rear needle bearing is destroyed. This bearing resides in the forward wall of the final drive cavity, above and a bit to the right of the pinion gear. It is the bearing around the rear end of the main shaft (not the pilot shaft!). You could only see this bearing after you removed the bellhousing, it is hiding inside the final drive cavity forward of the ring gear/differential assembly. If that bearing is trashed, then there's more there that needs to be fixed than can be reasonably accomplished in what I suppose to be your present circumstances.
or
2. You believe that there was an intermediate bearing in the forward wall of the bellhousing along with the pilot shaft seal and slinger tube. But there was never a bearing there. The metal bits inside the final drive cavity would be the remnants of the slinger tube and pilot shaft seal and possibly bits worn off the pilot shaft itself.
Destructo's comment above will help you determine the status of the actual, and only, pilot bearing.
| El Cazador de Trucha wrote: |
| The stud that used to be connected to the PILOT shaft was fully screwed into THE MAIN SHAFT inside of the transmission, leaving no threads exposed to attach to the PILOT shaft (does not appear to be broken, but I can't unthread it either). |
Fixed those terms, so we're using the same terminology. I know Bentley calls the pilot shaft the rear main shaft but that's awfully confusing, because if you forget to include the word "rear" no one can be sure which of the two are being discussed, and in this particular case the problem lies exactly between those two shafts. That's what we're having trouble with on this end.
And, what you found there is just what was expected. Good. Sleeve and circlip accounted for, and luckily the circlip isn't munched so you don't need to hunt one down. You should be able to get the broken stud to unthread from the rear end of the main shaft once you get it to budge, the threads were only loaded at the instant it wound up and snapped off, and until then it was always bathed in oil. Apply a little propane heat if necessary to the butt end of the main shaft while trying to unscrew the stud with a pick or something. Not for too long lest ye coke the oil in the rear main shaft bearing (if it is still there intact).
The pilot shaft seal and slinger tube can be serviced with the bellhousing off, once you remove the throwout bearing (remove the two U-clips that hang it on the cross-shaft arms), and remove the three M6 bolts that attach the throwout bearing guide sleeve to the inside of the bellhousing. That exposes the pilot shaft seal, and once whatever remains of it is removed (by prying out with a seal remover or other suitable lever; this is shown in my Bentley on p.35.43), you will see the backside flange of the oil slinger tube. It's a press-fit in the bellhousing, installed from the rear. It can be knocked out by pushing from the front. I can put up a picture of an intact slinger and an undamaged bellhousing if you need to see what they are supposed to look like, but right now I gotta go.
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 17127
Location: Brookeville, MD
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joseph928
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Joined: September 22, 2011
Posts: 2114
Location: flagstaff az.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:01 am Post subject: nacho |
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 On the road yes, back to Flagstaff and Phoenix , for some R&R, Nacho still down there. When they get back down there they will put in a new trans. Will take a big hand full of parts with them, I bet when they go back! 
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1987 syncro westy tin top sun roof , GW2.3, rear locker, decoupler, Gary Lee tire rack & winch mount, lift, south african grill, big brakes , rhein alloy ,15 BFG AT, Fiamma 10 foot awning ,140 watt rear 85 watt front solar , mppt, truckfridge, automatic fire extinguishing system, tencent oil cooler, And a RMW SS exhaust! - 1971 bug convertible 1776 engine- 2010 Subaru turbo - 1993 Toyota 4x4 truck - 1999 Harley 95 CI, big bore, Andrews cams . Also 80-84- vans. Stock 65 sunroof bug. |
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garryv84
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Joined: August 10, 2010
Posts: 276
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| I just looked at Nacho website, no news on this. Are you saying they came back home and left the van there? All for a new tranny? |
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
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Location: Brookeville, MD
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kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 8434
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:33 am Post subject: Re: nacho |
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| dobryan wrote: |
I am confused. Their latest blog talks about their travails getting Nacho onto a shiping container. Looks like it has a working trans...
http://www.drivenachodrive.com/ |
But, that's going from Panama to Columbia, and in Columbia is where the trans failed.
In the comments section of the blog update:
"Nacho made the trip just fine, only to have a failed transmission in Colombia. We’re now waiting for a new transmission from the states, and in the meantime are making a visit (at the 6 month point) to visit our family in AZ. We’ll be back there soon to install the new transmission once we figure out a freight company. All is well though, we’re totally stoked!"
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joseph928
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Joined: September 22, 2011
Posts: 2114
Location: flagstaff az.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:34 am Post subject: nacho |
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| garryv84 wrote: |
| I just looked at Nacho website, no news on this. Are you saying they came back home and left the van there? All for a new tranny? |
No, but after all the problems they have had, and 5 months on the road they just needed some R&R at home. I guess being on vacation is hard work. This may not be 100% accurate, I'm just a friend of theirs . Right now they should be in the air , on the way home. Being here just will be handy for parts to take back with them.
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1987 syncro westy tin top sun roof , GW2.3, rear locker, decoupler, Gary Lee tire rack & winch mount, lift, south african grill, big brakes , rhein alloy ,15 BFG AT, Fiamma 10 foot awning ,140 watt rear 85 watt front solar , mppt, truckfridge, automatic fire extinguishing system, tencent oil cooler, And a RMW SS exhaust! - 1971 bug convertible 1776 engine- 2010 Subaru turbo - 1993 Toyota 4x4 truck - 1999 Harley 95 CI, big bore, Andrews cams . Also 80-84- vans. Stock 65 sunroof bug. |
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dobryan
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Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 17127
Location: Brookeville, MD
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: nacho |
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| kamzcab86 wrote: |
| dobryan wrote: |
I am confused. Their latest blog talks about their travails getting Nacho onto a shiping container. Looks like it has a working trans...
http://www.drivenachodrive.com/ |
But, that's going from Panama to Columbia, and in Columbia is where the trans failed.
In the comments section of the blog update:
"Nacho made the trip just fine, only to have a failed transmission in Colombia. We’re now waiting for a new transmission from the states, and in the meantime are making a visit (at the 6 month point) to visit our family in AZ. We’ll be back there soon to install the new transmission once we figure out a freight company. All is well though, we’re totally stoked!"
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Got it. Thanks!
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'87 Westy w/ 2010 Subaru EJ25 (Vanaru) and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
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Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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wildenbeast
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Joined: April 04, 2008
Posts: 680
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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Seeing that they are going back to the states, I am curious why they don't just bring back a transmission on their return flight. I know several people that have done this going from Sweden to the USA.
Bill
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MayorMcCheese
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nemobuscaptain
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IdahoDoug
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Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 10355
Location: N. Idaho
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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I suspect the appeal is the incredible form factor - cavernous interior, forward driving position, excellent outward visibility, long roof for cargo, etc. Nothing has it beat for a small footprint but huge interior.
Hope they get some rest and continue their once in a lifetime trip.
DougM
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tschroeder0
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Joined: April 14, 2008
Posts: 2098
Location: Boulder CO
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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Agreed,
I've been there, just a short time ago on my back in the Yukon pulling the trans out, flying home(for a funeral) coming back putting it all back in and rooling on down the road.
I can honestly say that what seemed like hell at the time turned out to be an enormous learning experience and left me with a warm feeling for a great number of people who were willing to help a stranger...not to mention a great story.
It will all be fine, cause it already is. |
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ALIKA T3
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Joined: July 30, 2009
Posts: 7167
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not coming very often on the forum,so I missed the whole live drama.
If it's a 091 transmission in their bus (like on the T25 air-cooled and early diesels,they could have found a late bay window,they are the same transmissions,just swap the nose cone with the shifter/selector and get back on the road.
If it's a 091/1 tranny,that's not possible this way,it would need some serious shifter/selector customization on the bay window transmission
By the way,the stud on the pilot shaft is not M8,it's a weird M7,23mm long.
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drivenachodrive
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Joined: May 05, 2010
Posts: 152
Location: Flagstaff
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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Seems I was unsubscribed from this post somehow - sorry I haven't been here to clear up the confusion.
The trans failed, but fortunately in the most beautiful and serene mountain village imaginable. We spent a week in a small cabin on a farm researching our options (local fix, local rebuild, import new, etc) when one of our readers offered to have a tranny rebuilt and sent down to us free of charge. We'd just pay for shipping and he'd donate the rebuilt tranny. This seemed too good an offer to pass up, so we decided to go for it. In the time it will take for the tranny to arrive, we decided to go home and visit friends and family.
It wasn't that we felt like we needed to come home to recuperate, in fact we're currently at the high point in our trip so far. Colombia has been our favorite country, and every day is like a new high (even despite the car issues). We decided that visiting home during a high point would be wisest, as we would be excited to go back. If we had gone home from Guatemala when our wheel bearings failed, we might not have wanted to come back.
As for our vehicle choice, there's always something that one would have done differently in hindsight. Our Vanagon is a wonderful choice for us in that we have a really nice home on the road. It's slow, parts are rare, and it breaks down a lot, but we came here for adventure and adventure is what we're having. If I could do it all again I'd have a Syncro with a Subaru engine, but I would also have less money left for the actual trip.
It's hard to keep the blog up to date, as I try to tell interesting stories, and I spend a good deal of time writing the posts. This means we're perpetually behind (as are all of the other bloggers doing similar trips). If you want to keep up with our day to day updates, you'll have to "like" our Facebook page:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Drive-Nacho-Drive/218388858200902
Thanks to everyone for all the support and advice. Just know that we're not "down and out" in the least. In fact, we wake up every day wondering how it's possible to have such a great life. No regrets, staying stoked, and can't wait to get back to Colombia. Time for some mini-adventures stateside!
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www.drivenachodrive.com
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tencentlife
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Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10147
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:47 am Post subject: |
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By the way,the stud on the pilot shaft is not M8,it's a weird M7,23mm long.
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Is it? Thanks, haven't had one in my hand in a long time.
I see from the smallcar page that it's also a separate part, that's good to know too.
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