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madspaniard
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2008
Posts: 3795
Location: Alameda, CA
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 Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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weird, yes, it looks like you have a shortened or cut off version of the stock bumpstops
_________________
1991 Westy auto w/ Peloquin TBD
"The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad” - Salvador Dali |
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timichango
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| madspaniard wrote: |
| weird, yes, it looks like you have a shortened or cut off version of the stock bumpstops |
To clarify—those images are from another member's unrelated thread, but yes—the ones that came off mine had 3 'donuts', vs the ones Smallcar just installed which have 5 'donuts'.
Is the 3-donut version from a Carat? Wolfsburg? Some other odd vanagon variant? Very weird that it was on my van if all GL Westy full campers originally came with the taller ones!
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Vroomhilde-San: Our 1991 Silver Vanagon Westy automatic + Subie EJ25 |
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tarandusVDub
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2010
Posts: 1683
Location: Between Here and There
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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That is a good find ~ hopefully that will solve your tire issues...maybe your van used to be a 'low-rider'!
_________________
1990 Syncro 16" DoppleKabine 2.1 DJ 112i
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Sold: 1972 Bay Campmobile; 1984 Westy, base model, 2WD. |
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Jake de Villiers
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5938
Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| timichango wrote: |
| madspaniard wrote: |
| weird, yes, it looks like you have a shortened or cut off version of the stock bumpstops |
To clarify—those images are from another member's unrelated thread, but yes—the ones that came off mine had 3 'donuts', vs the ones Smallcar just installed which have 5 'donuts'.
Is the 3-donut version from a Carat? Wolfsburg? Some other odd vanagon variant? Very weird that it was on my van if all GL Westy full campers originally came with the taller ones! |
The Carat/late model vans with shorter springs have shorter bump stops like that.
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7.5 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
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240Gordy
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2008
Posts: 2354
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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or the previous owner cut them down to work with shorter springs.
Wouldn't factory short bumpstops retain the dust cover?
_________________
Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR |
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timichango
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Jake de Villiers wrote: |
The Carat/late model vans with shorter springs have shorter bump stops like that. |
So the $67,000 trivia question is: could a '91 full camper have come with the shorter stops from the factory?
IF it's possible that some vans that normally came with the taller stops occasionally/accidentally got camperized with the shorter stops and/or springs, then that might be a clue as to why Smallcar / Van Cafe are only running into this issue with this particular wheel/tire package intermittently.
GoWesty indicates ( http://bit.ly/Rg02zA ) that "GL models with ground effects package" came with 1" lowering springs. But NOT on Westfalia campers. Could it be that this differentiation wasn't 100% consistent?
| 240Gordy wrote: |
or the previous owner cut them down to work with shorter springs.
Wouldn't factory short bumpstops retain the dust cover? |
I suppose it's possible, but there's no record of a spring change in the van's service records, and I didn't get the impression from the service slips, the condition of the van, or the previous owner's son (who sold the van to me) that the p/o was into modding stuff—the van seemed pretty stock when I bought it, and all service records indicate service by 2 different specialty VW shops on Vancouver island.
That said—the 'short' bumpstops that came off the van *did* have the dust cover portion of the bump-stop assembly installed—or at least the remnants of them; they were hacksawed off about 1/2cm past the shoulder, and a set of accordion-style boots was in place over top.
My guess upon seeing this yesterday was that the dust sleeves had been damaged, and at some point someone had cut'em off and attached the accordion boots as a fix.
But who knows? The mysteries here abound 
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Vroomhilde-San: Our 1991 Silver Vanagon Westy automatic + Subie EJ25 |
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syncrodoka
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12393
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Commercial vans like trucks and panels have use the 5 rubber donut style. I don't know what campers were classified as for bumpstop fitting though.
Maybe some members can help out with that. |
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madspaniard
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2008
Posts: 3795
Location: Alameda, CA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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One datapoint: my late model Westfalia came stock with the 5 donut bumpstop
_________________
1991 Westy auto w/ Peloquin TBD
"The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad” - Salvador Dali |
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snoop
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 375
Location: SW Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| madspaniard wrote: |
| One datapoint: my late model Westfalia came stock with the 5 donut bumpstop |
So did my '87 westy.
I'm no authority on the subject, but it's my opinion that a 3 or 5 bumpstop configuration is immaterial to the question of cause of one's van's fender lip impacts; the arc of curvature of the top of one's van's tires under the range of permissibible articulations of one's van's suspension is what matters. If under some portion of that range of articulation of one's van's suspension, the arc of curvature of one's van's tires intersect with one's van's fender lip, then one has a problem. The point being...if your van was dropped from an airplane at 30,000", if your van's tires don't hit the fender lip, you don't have a problem, if they do, you do. The number of bumpstops are irrelevant to whether your tire/wheel/spacer configuration is capable of utilizing the suspension articulation space that volkswagen provided.
I'm of the opinion that one should not inflict upon one's van and therefore upon one's self, a limited range of enjoyment of their van and the places where their van can take them, because of their imposed limitations on their van's suspension articulation in deference to one's choice of 'wheels that look cool'. Yea, limiting your suspension's articulation with more bumpstop is a way to mitigate the problem (that poor decisions created, sorry...know that I've made 'em too...I'm writing from experience), but it's not a solution. Configuring your van's wheels/tires/spacers to work with your van's suspension to allow your van's tires to travel INSIDE the fender wells under FULL suspension articulation instead of INTO the fender wells under PARTIAL suspension articulation is consistent with maintaining a vehicle's function that was designed, more than any other vehicle ever possibly, around function.
My 2 cents, could be of less value to you...
mike
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87 Westy Camper |
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timichango
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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Mike/snoop,
I couldn't agree more with you about the ideal outcome being winding up with a wheel/tire travel arc that doesn't collide with my/anyone's fender lip.
Speaking for myself, I couldn't give a flying you-know-what what my wheel/tire combo looks like—this problem isn't the function or byproduct of some pursuit for aesthetics, or any bad decisions stemming from that pursuit. I took the advice of professionals who sold me products that were a) supposed to work with my van in order to b) improve the function thereof (by permitting better braking to be installed, and improving handling).
The fact of the matter is, I've spent, between the brakes (which where what started this whole thing), wheels, tires, and consequent suspension (springs/shocks) upgrades—all prescribed by Smallcar—over $4000 in converted dollars, plus time, plus gas, etc. Any solutions, ideal or otherwise, available to me now are, as a consequence of simply having no more money to throw at problems that I'm not technically adept enough to solve myself (not being a mechanic and all that) quite limited. I can't buy new wheels or tires. I can't modify my control arms, or my rotors, or anything of the sort. And I can't go back to the old parts, since they don't exist anymore, and that'd be more labour I can't pay for.
And the folks who sold me down this particular river, seem adamant that they don't owe me more than bump stops.
So, according to your (fully & sincerely appreciated) honest assessment about ideal outcomes and configurations... I'm basically screwed. Right?
If I'd have known that agreeing with the sales pitch on a brake upgrade was going to cost me so much time and anguish, I'd have steered f'n clear, I know that much. I'd just really like to be able to feel good about what's on my van and be done with it, but frankly, that seems impossible at this point.
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Vroomhilde-San: Our 1991 Silver Vanagon Westy automatic + Subie EJ25 |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5541
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:23 am Post subject: |
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Man, it really bothers me to see people in your type of situation. Feeling like you are stuck with no good way out is the pits. I just talked to a customer yesterday who is in exactly the same situation as you. Exactly!
If you are interested, there is a solution to this that you can handle yourself. It will be a little bit of a pain in the neck and it will take a little bit of your time, but in the end, you shouldn't be out much, if any, money. In other words, when it's all said and done, you should remain fairly close to your current investment.
This basically involves buying your own new wheels, having your current tires swapped over and selling your current wheels.
I am 100% willing to help you through this process free of charge if you are interested. Please send me email at the address below.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| timichango wrote: |
I'm basically screwed. Right?
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Depends on your outlook on life.
On the one hand you've learned a great deal about your van.. and you now know more than do many of the "professionals" regarding this particular desgn issue.
Keep that in mind as you move forward... even the best pros, don't know it all. (Who could know it all?)
And its up to us to do the homework when we start modifying away from stock.. "assumed risk"
Keep an eye out for ET37 CLK wheels or steelies. I think that MBZ steel wheel can be found for $100 and change, new. And they don't look too bad.. if I do say so myself.
Then sell your wheels in the classifieds.. They should command a reasonable price.. and you won't be out too much money.. possibly a break even if you can find a deal on CLKs.
Don't be too surprised if Smallcar miraculously solves this problem with future brake kits. I betcha they won't sell that ET25 wheel in combo anymore.. heh...
Did you point them to this thread?
_________________
-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
I am 100% willing to help you through this process free of charge if you are interested. |
I'd not pass on that offer, timi!
_________________
-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
Man, it really bothers me to see people in your type of situation. Feeling like you are stuck with no good way out is the pits. I just talked to a customer yesterday who is in exactly the same situation as you. Exactly!
If you are interested, there is a solution to this that you can handle yourself. It will be a little bit of a pain in the neck and it will take a little bit of your time, but in the end, you shouldn't be out much, if any, money. In other words, when it's all said and done, you should remain fairly close to your current investment.
This basically involves buying your own new wheels, having your current tires swapped over and selling your current wheels.
I am 100% willing to help you through this process free of charge if you are interested. Please send me email at the address below. |
Some have asked me to give testimonials about my experience with vendors.....here is an example of my top vendor in action.
Kudos Christopher 
Yup, CLKs baby, all my vans have at least one set.
Great rim.
Finding them in original or decent condition is getting harder.
Aftermarket copies are available. |
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Jake de Villiers
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5938
Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| timichango wrote: |
Mike/snoop,
I couldn't agree more with you about the ideal outcome being winding up with a wheel/tire travel arc that doesn't collide with my/anyone's fender lip.
Speaking for myself, I couldn't give a flying you-know-what what my wheel/tire combo looks like—this problem isn't the function or byproduct of some pursuit for aesthetics, or any bad decisions stemming from that pursuit. I took the advice of professionals who sold me products that were a) supposed to work with my van in order to b) improve the function thereof (by permitting better braking to be installed, and improving handling).
The fact of the matter is, I've spent, between the brakes (which where what started this whole thing), wheels, tires, and consequent suspension (springs/shocks) upgrades—all prescribed by Smallcar—over $4000 in converted dollars, plus time, plus gas, etc. Any solutions, ideal or otherwise, available to me now are, as a consequence of simply having no more money to throw at problems that I'm not technically adept enough to solve myself (not being a mechanic and all that) quite limited. I can't buy new wheels or tires. I can't modify my control arms, or my rotors, or anything of the sort. And I can't go back to the old parts, since they don't exist anymore, and that'd be more labour I can't pay for.
And the folks who sold me down this particular river, seem adamant that they don't owe me more than bump stops.
So, according to your (fully & sincerely appreciated) honest assessment about ideal outcomes and configurations... I'm basically screwed. Right?
If I'd have known that agreeing with the sales pitch on a brake upgrade was going to cost me so much time and anguish, I'd have steered f'n clear, I know that much. I'd just really like to be able to feel good about what's on my van and be done with it, but frankly, that seems impossible at this point. |
Sounds like the same old Small Car story.
You might want to watch out for a set of 16 x 7 Mercedes steelies on Craig's List or the Buy & Sell. They would solve your problems and leave with with extra money after you've sold your present wheels. Unfortunately for you, I sold my spare set in the summer! 
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7.5 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
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Altoona
Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2011
Posts: 596
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:30 am Post subject: |
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Soooo.....before we go too far down the SmallCar bashing road....did the bumpstops fix it?
It sounds like the 5 doughnut stops are what should have been on there - and if they fix the issue, then SmallCar is absolved of any wrongdoing since their statement that all the parts they choose would work together, is correct. If it doesn't, then..... |
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snoop
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 375
Location: SW Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| timichango wrote: |
I'm basically screwed. Right?
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Isn't vulture capitalism great  , wonder if Bain Capital owns SmallCar...at least the investors are happy 
Agree with everyone else that cutting your losses and getting some different wheels is the thing to do. That's what I did. I sold the ($1500 cost) 6 week old set of wheels and tires here on the Samba for $300 with full disclosure that they caused fender damage on my 2WD rig and that they might on others too. The good news is that your wheels very likely would not do so on a syncro...hopefully someone with a syncro would like your wheels.
I bought a set of CLKs for $300, put undamaged tires on 'em and chalked it up to a learning experience (that harm that I could never imagine allowing my actions to cause in someone else's life is for others "business").
Choose the Bodhisattva that is Christopher Schimke to help you.
It's going to get better, timi.
Peace,
mike
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87 Westy Camper |
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timichango
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
If you are interested, there is a solution to this that you can handle yourself. It will be a little bit of a pain in the neck and it will take a little bit of your time, but in the end, you shouldn't be out much, if any, money. In other words, when it's all said and done, you should remain fairly close to your current investment.
This basically involves buying your own new wheels, having your current tires swapped over and selling your current wheels.
I am 100% willing to help you through this process free of charge if you are interested. Please send me email at the address below. |
You're amazing—that assessment puts me at ease somewhat, and I'll 100% take you up on your offer of help as soon as I've got the mental and financial bandwidth to pursue the avenue of resolution you're suggesting.
To clarify, though, do you reckon it's going to be possible to retain my existing tires (Nokian WRG2 215 65r16) with a different wheel (ie. that a different wheel width/offset will bring the tread in enough to make these work)? Given the outer tread damage, I'm pretty certain that selling the tires to recoup costs on that front is not an option. I'm happy to keep rollin'em if a change in rims is going to be enough to get them outta the way of the fender.
| j_dirge wrote: |
Depends on your outlook on life.
On the one hand you've learned a great deal about your van.. and you now know more than do many of the "professionals" regarding this particular desgn issue.
|
Ain't it the truth. I know more than I ever wanted to at this stage... Just enough knowledge to be dangerous, as they say. 
| j_dirge wrote: |
| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
I am 100% willing to help you through this process free of charge if you are interested. |
I'd not pass on that offer, timi! |
I surely won't. I hope the man likes scotch—I'll surely be sending him some before this saga is through.
| insyncro wrote: |
Yup, CLKs baby, all my vans have at least one set.
Great rim.
Finding them in original or decent condition is getting harder.
Aftermarket copies are available. |
Are the aftermarket CLKs as good as the originals / worth tracking down? Or better to hold out for a set of originals? What makes this particular rim superior to other mercedes/audi/vw rims? Just ease of fitment?
| Jake de Villiers wrote: |
| Sounds like the same old Small Car story. |
It's a bummer. The worst part is the low rumbling skepticism and anxiety that this is generating for me around the Subie conversion they did (which has, in fairness, been perfect thus far). But yeah, the way a company handles warranty issues on one front is usually consistent with how they'll handle others, and this issue—and the apparent inattention to detail—leaves me feeling a bit cold.
I mean, I get it—business is business, and caveat emptor, and all that, but given how apparently easy it would be for them to spec a different tire and wheel combo, I'm baffled at their insistence on trudging forward with this setup. Nobody wants to take a bath on product recalls and warranty, but IMHO generating goodwill is better for business in the long run.
| Altoona wrote: |
Soooo.....before we go too far down the SmallCar bashing road....did the bumpstops fix it?
It sounds like the 5 doughnut stops are what should have been on there - and if they fix the issue, then SmallCar is absolved of any wrongdoing since their statement that all the parts they choose would work together, is correct. If it doesn't, then..... |
Short answer—I don't know yet. Given the height of 2 donuts, vs. the depth of cut on my tires from previous impacts, it's hard to say, but I reckon the answer is no. Reduced, mitigated, maybe/probably. But I need to stick a crapload of ballast in the van and go hit some nasty driveways to be sure. And to be honest, I'm apprehensive about trying to deliberately cause more damage for diagnosis. Is there any way, short of hitting some bumps, to force the van into maximum suspension compression? Like a reverse-jack or something that pulls the van down to test suspension range?
Here's another complication: I've already lost a pile of rubber on the outer tread blocks, so in a sense my tires have already clearanced themselves on the fender lips somewhat. What happens when the wheels get rotated back to front, and I've got those treadblocks back on the front? I really don't want to deliberately rotate only to wind up with 4 damaged tires instead of 2... so a bit at a loss for how to assess this conclusively. There's got to be some way to simulate Snoop's theoretical 30,000' drop scenario...?
| snoop wrote: |
I bought a set of CLKs for $300, put undamaged tires on 'em and chalked it up to a learning experience (that harm that I could never imagine allowing my actions to cause in someone else's life is for others "business").
|
I hear ya. I spec technology for my clients on a regular basis (I'm in the web biz), and on the odd occasions that I spec stuff that winds up not being appropriate, or working incorrectly, I operate from the stance that the onus is on me to replace my prescribed solution with something that performs as advertised. You're 100% right that this is a learning experience that different businesses/industries don't adopt this principle in equal measure.
| snoop wrote: |
Choose the Bodhisattva that is Christopher Schimke to help you.
It's going to get better, timi.
|
Word.
_________________
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Vroomhilde-San: Our 1991 Silver Vanagon Westy automatic + Subie EJ25
Last edited by timichango on Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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timichango
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012
Posts: 858
Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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I may be a victim of the Facebook age, but this forum really needs a 'like' button for forum responses.
It also very much needs a 'buy everyone a round of pints' button. That'd be great right about now.
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Vroomhilde-San: Our 1991 Silver Vanagon Westy automatic + Subie EJ25 |
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PDXWesty
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2006
Posts: 6344
Location: Portland OR
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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This post just makes me shake my head. I've bitten my tongue until now and know I will regret this, but here goes. People complain about something not working and then blame others. "why didn't you tell me this would happen" Truth is you have completely changed the original design of the vehicle with different brakes, different wheels, different suspension, larger tires than was ever recommended for the van, then ask "why do my tires rub?"
It's because you changed everything.
Each componant taken individually may work, but the combination of possible componants makes it impossible for any vendor to let you know what will work with your van. Don't blame them for not doing your own homework.
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89 Westy 2.1 Auto |
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