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"The Toaster" ~ Personal History and restoration
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DadaCheese
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BarryL wrote:
Sheesh.

"Tangent" implies that at least one point in space touches the line of the original circle.


Everything is connected...
That, and my brain has no stopper for the junk that flows out of it.

@ NorCalRiviera Thanks for the lead...
@ crofty Thanks for the link.
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DadaCheese
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:51 pm    Post subject: Gas Smell and Gas Tank Replacement... Reply with quote

Greetings,

Perhaps everyone experiences this, but it seems to me that the smell of gasoline is a bit too prominent these days with "The Toaster" now that I'm driving it regularly again.

YES, all of the flexible fuel lines are new, tight, correctly and firmly attached, and I am not seeing any leaks anywhere from them, or in the engine compartment in general.
These are the first thing(s) I check, and continually check, to make sure everything is safe...

The gas smell, however, is primarily when I fill the tank (as in; all the way full). I know too that perhaps I had it parked at an angle after fill-up, and over-flow is coming out and the like, and/or it's merely venting(?)...

Since we live in a split-level house, if I put the car in the garage without letting the car rest outside for a good hour+ after driving it, then the whole house will smell not only like hot engine, but gasoline too. At least, when the tank is very full.

The current gas tank is the original. I doubt it has ever been removed. I have no doubt too that the "Fuel Tank Filler Neck Seal" is original and is deteriorated or decrepit.

The way I see it;
    there could be leaks in the tank its self that I am not seeing,
    the neck seal needs replacing,
    ...or something I haven't though of?

Although I have read how "easy" it is to refurbish (remove rust, etc.) from a gas tank, at $150, I'm tempted to get one of Wolfsburg West's repro. tanks, all the seals needed, etc., instead of spending almost that amount on solvents and such.
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=211201055B

Who knows, then perhaps I could sell the old one to someone who desperately needs a tank?

Any of you been through this dilemma? What did you end up doing?
Is it likely that it's as simple as my "Fuel Tank Filler Neck Seal" needing replacement? With 45+ years on this tank, any reason not to put a fresh reproduction tank from WW into my bus?

...one last piece of info; I'm using a lousy, lockable, after-market gas cap bought at Pep-boys in the the mid-1980's. Could that just be allowing too much ventilation?

Thanks for listening to me rant, and for your potentially helpful suggestions and/or admonishments.
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NorCalWeekender
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly, when I fill up, I make sure to park so my gas door is facing uphill...however I need to do that.

However, I was experiencing a bit of a fuel smell at other times a month or two back...turns out every last screw on the top of the carb was loose. All five or six of them, totally loose. You might check the top of the carb just to see if that's part of the problem.
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DadaCheese
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NorCalRiviera wrote:
...every last screw on the top of the carb was loose. All five or six of them, totally loose. You might check the top of the carb just to see if that's part of the problem.


NorCal; It'll be the first thing I check when I get home today. Thanks for the tip.

...and I'm still open to any other comments/suggestions/experiences if anyone wants to share.
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zozo
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check out where the fuel gauge sending unit goes into the top of the tank. Tight? Sealed?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if this is the case but I used to have a Single Cab a long time ago where the center seam around the tank had a small split in it so gas and fumes leaked out.

So you couldn't really fill the tank up past 1/2 without it leaking.

It was pretty obvious under the truck though, gas dripped out and ate away the street since I parked on the street.

So maybe it's the tank itself.

On a full tank the gas will expand and possibly overflow the tank on a hot day. I never fill up my tank then drive straight home or park at too steep an angle to the right if the tank is full.

Side note: It sounds like you need to seal your garage too.
My garage is under my house and I rarely smell anything from my garage unless I open the door to inside the house.
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Major Woody
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tank fumes when parked is one reason I was considering installing a charcoal canister from an old SB on my bus. I think you could hide it away so nobody would know it was there.
Want to make sure this is really a problem that needs solving first.
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DadaCheese
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zozo wrote:
Check out where the fuel gauge sending unit goes into the top of the tank. Tight? Sealed?


...also something I hope to check (thanks for the advice). Knowing how hard it was to get the wire on there, I guess I may need to pull the engine to get back there.

EverettB wrote:
...where the center seam around the tank had a small split in it so gas and fumes leaked out....
...It was pretty obvious under the truck though, gas dripped out and ate away the street since I parked on the street... So maybe it's the tank itself.

Thanks Everett; yeah, it sounds like overall I need to get a good visual on the tank.

...and the sealing of house's garage; I'll see what I can do; there's a lot to this new-to-us house that could use better insulation, sealing, etc. LOVE that the VW is home, however, and not "stored" three hours away.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

get a new gas cap. if you like your current one, get the cap anyways, and take the rubber seal out of the new one and put it in the old one. start there. cheap thing to take off the list.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="DadaCheese"]
zozo wrote:
Check out where the fuel gauge sending unit goes into the top of the tank. Tight? Sealed?


...also something I hope to check (thanks for the advice). Knowing how hard it was to get the wire on there, I guess I may need to pull the engine to get back there.

You don't need to pull the engine to tighten the sender , it's a stretch but you can get in .
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DadaCheese
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:48 pm    Post subject: Gas Tank Removal Reply with quote

Well, in order to see what was really going on, and to decide whether I needed (or just simply wanted) to replace any parts, I went ahead and removed the fuel tank today.

The gas fume problem, I have decided, was coming from one of two places (or both).

1) When the tank is very full, or too full, and the gas overflows out of the cap due to expanding in heat, or if the car is at an angle, allowing for overflow out of the vented gas cap, then gas would then dribble onto, and possibly through the "Fuel Tank Filler Neck Seal" (which is old), and the gas would then run into the engine compartment (instead of down out the overflow tube which just puts it out on the ground). Since the gas would then be collecting in the engine compartment, it would take longer to evaporate, and thus smell for a longer/more continual amount of time.
2) It appears that there might be a leak in the tank where the neck meets the tank, and since that is a high point on the tank, it only became very noticeable when the tank was very full.

The tank is out, and I don't need to drive my bus to get to work, so I think I'm going to go ahead and buy a new tank.

Have no idea what the old one is worth to someone, but after I have put in the a new tank (give me a couple weeks), if someone wants to make an offer on the old one, and can pick it up in the Bay Area of California, then I'd be willing to sell it, or take a trade of something for it. It would be without the sending unit, and if the new tank doesn't come with the bottom spigot, then it won't have that either.

Since I had time, I also started to try to remove the 45+ years of dirt and crud from the engine compartment since the motor and tank are out of the way.
Any favorite/best products or solutions for doing this? Right now it's just me, soapy water, some Simple Green and a rag I have to keep rinsing out. ...although the work is tedious, I have got to say that as spots of pristine paint are revealed, having been preserved by oil and grime, it's pretty satisfying.

Two other things/notes:

There's s swatch of material underneath each corner of the Gas Tank Metal straps. Anyone know what this material is, and what I should use with the new tank to replace that?

Found a rock and a little rose-like flower bud in my tank when I got it out.

Removal Collage:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Tight Fit:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Tank Out:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


"Fuel Tank Filler Neck Seal"
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Sending Unit Collage:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Material Question:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Found in Gas Tank:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Elbow Grease:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


How working on our VWs makes us feel:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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DadaCheese
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:34 pm    Post subject: Felt and Rubber and Such. Reply with quote

More near-random musings.
My gas tank replacement parts are all on their way to me (list below).
Can't work on it this weekend, so the new gas tank won't go in until Sat. March 2nd, 2013, at the latest.
Still have a couple random questions though (please see below)...

Parts from Wolfsburg West:
Item# Description
211201055B TANK MID'55-67
211201255 FLLR NECK SEAL
113919133 TANK/SEND SEAL
211201195 BUS TANK TO BODY SEAL
111209147A FILTER IN TANK
111209139 SEALING RING

211827711 LID SEAL 55-79

Parts from Bustoration:
Item# Description
211201551 Gas Cap for Bus -->67 (9-3)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Questions:
1) "Felt" between the gas tank holding straps and the tank. What have folks used for these? at W.W. it was suggested (by phone), than unless doing a 100% refurb., some simple rubber would work fine. Should I just cut up one of those flat rubber bungee cords for that?

2) Glue for hatch (lid seal) rubber replacement. ~ I'll be replacing the lid seal's rubber which surrounds the engine compartment. Do folks have favorite/best adhesive for this? From another unrelated thread:
Major Woody wrote:
The seals are glued in with "gorilla snot" or 3M yellow weatherstrip adhesive which any good FLAPS should sell. It comes in a toothpaste tube.

3) I'm still trying to clean the caked-on grime out the engine compartment. It's slow going. I bought some of that purple stuff and spot tested it. It does manage to strip original paint, so I won't be using it. Honestly I have simply been putting gasoline on a rag, and cleaning with that (with protective gloves and goggles). Is there a better way? The engine's out, so it has to be something I can do from/at home. Suggestions?

Thanks everyone.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Felt and Rubber and Such. Reply with quote

DadaCheese wrote:

3) I'm still trying to clean the caked-on grime out the engine compartment. It's slow going. I bought some of that purple stuff and spot tested it. It does manage to strip original paint, so I won't be using it. Honestly I have simply been putting gasoline on a rag, and cleaning with that (with protective gloves and goggles). Is there a better way? The engine's out, so it has to be something I can do from/at home.


did you already try the good ole pressure washer?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used rocker cover gaskets. They are too thick really. Bungee would be to. You could use some inner tube rubber or synthetic felt. I would like to know what is good also.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stores like Orchard Supply sell felt waether stripping for doors come on a roll and work great for the tank straps.


You can dilute the purple degreaser but it works the best. wearing gloves, spray it on a small area at a time and rub the area with a sponge and then rinse with water.

I use the same 3M sealant Major Woody mentioned. It works great. Wear gloves.
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DadaCheese
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Crofty, mandraks and 66311.

(3) For speedier cleaning I think I'll try a combination...
Although I don't have a pressure washer, I do have a garden hose that I can hook up to a hot water faucet, and it has a pretty good nozzle on it.
Found this thread too "Best way to clean a motor?"
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=475553

...so I'll cover/wrap everything I don't want getting wet (like the transmission, and remaining wires in the compartment) and then see if the hot water (and a brush/sponge) helps loosen things up and then, as per Crofty's suggestion, use some diluted purple stuff a little at a time, clean, rinse, dry.

(1) Will go to Orchard for the felt weather stripping...

(2) ... and Orchard or an auto parts store for the "3M yellow weatherstrip adhesive"

Thanks again. The Samba always helps so much instead of reinventing the wheel.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure most DIY home improvement stores carry the felt

http://www.amazon.com/Frost-S214-17H-Weather-Strip-16-Inch/dp/B000EU42MS




I don't think you'll find the adhesive at Orchard.
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DadaCheese
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:26 am    Post subject: More stupid questions from DadaCheese. Reply with quote

OK, here's my latest newbie (to this process) questions...
Please see numbered questions in red below.


I hope to finish this project this weekend (March 2nd-3rd, 2013).

First off, however, our new tank:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


...and some progress on cleaning out the engine compartment.
Using the hose with hot water out in the driveway helped loosen stuff a bit more,
am/was still using some gasoline for the hardest to clean areas, but it's getting down to Simple Green in detailed areas now:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Now some questions.
Below you see that by using gas, and a scrubber sponge (green scrubber side of of a sponge), I have managed to create some spots of bare metal:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Question 1: Am I going to need/want to spray paint this before putting the new tank and filler neck gasket in?
If yes, does someone know the product name/description of some simple Krylon spray paint (and color) that I should use?
I can mask the area around it if I'm going to do this.


About engine seals...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Please see the picture above.
My old seals were/had been cut at the corner(s) of where the seal meets the rear apron.

Question 2: Is that common? Cutting the seal at the corners for ease?
If the answer is no, then how easy/difficult is it to take the apron on or off if the seal is to remain as a big "U"?
Is there a trick (installing, as well as maintaining the "U" when I remove the apron)?

Question 3: The engine to body seals are all made to have a flap or "groove" between a top and bottom flap (see WW's detail view in the picture above).
Should the bottom half go below the engine tin, and the top half above? Or do they both go below...? I honestly do not know.


Thanks in advance for your kind answers to my admittedly simple (minded) questions.
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dadacheese, great thread man!

Have you ever seen the profile of an og engine seal? The Wolfsburg west ones by comparison is sooooo junk!

Thank you for sharing!
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry wrote:
Have you ever seen the profile of an og engine seal? The Wolfsburg west ones by comparison is sooooo junk!

Jerry,

No, I haven't. The WW ones is what I have currently to put in this weekend... do you, or other folks have additional advice of better (closer to Original German) rubber for the engine compartment?

...and I hope some folks can chime to too on the questions I have on my post above.
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