new here-need help!

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Hey Folks! I just found this fourm! I need some advice. I recently rebuilt my 78' 2L, added a 009 and have a weber progressive carb. I don't have the timing scale but have looked at a pic and have a good idea where TDC and such is. My question is this: I know that the motor will not live with anything more than 30deg. total advance, well...if I set the dist. there the motor will not run. If I set the dist. where the motor runs best (somewhere around 0 +/- 5 degrees) the total advance is near 40 degrees!!?? Am I crazy? I have tinkered with different timings and found that occasionaly the bus will run hot (run-on after shut off). I recently drove it on a 600 mile trip in the Texas panhandle and it did not self destruct (but once or twice it ran-on). Anybody else run in to the same problems? I did have to alter the position of the dist. drive pinion from the books 12 degrees from case line. The condensor would hit the cooling tin. I seems to run fine with the bug position (90 degrees to case line). Will this effect something that I am overlooking? AARRGGHHHHH! This type IV is a pain in the butt compared to my bug motor. (My dad says that the 009 is the problem, his 914 had similar problems-I might try the stock dist. even through they say the vac signal from the weber is not strong enough-it worked before the rebuild)

Thanks!!

[keifernet]

No fuel cut off on the weber. Buy a timing scale, their plastic and they are cheaper than engine work due to improper timing...
Moving the drive doesn't hurt anything it just changes the position of the distrib for the clearance if you have interference from the condenser or the vacume can with the stock one....
I would time it reved up to about 3,000 and 30-32 degrees.... then see where it is at idle, (should be at 8-10) drawing a line from the screw in the fan housing
( that is usually what is used for refference if the scale is not on there)

If it won't idle timed there, make adjustments to the carb,... one trick I've found is there is a very tiny set screw that opens up the secondary butterfly, sometimes you can get to it with a short very small flat blade driver, turning it to open the butterfly just slightly will bring up the idle( brings in just a bit more air) and you can go back and re- adjust the regular idle screw down if neccesary... and then re adjust the mixture screw....
If you stilll have a little flat spot look and see how many holes are in the accel pump linkage.... 2 or 3 , if you have 3 you can move it to the lower hole if it is in the middle for a bigger shot of fuel. Or if the carb is used and older, put in a new diagprham and general rebuild may be in order to solve your problem, using timing to solve Idle problems is not the way to go...
good luck...

[Karl]

That 30-32 max figure is for type1 engines. You have a type 4 engine. Totally different animal. Toss that 009 as far as you can throw it. The correct dist will give you 40-44 degrees total advance. This IS correct. Here are the specs for the correct dist. This is for the mid-76 up. Early 76, to 12/75 production date, used a dual vacuum advance dist. Starting 1/76, they used a single vacuum advance.

Bus & Pickup Late 1976-1978 All States, 1979 Federal * 2000
Distributor: VW 021-905-205P, Bosch 0231 168 005 > 022-905-205S, 0231 170 093
Note: 0231 170 093 dist primarily used on California Late 1976-1978 and all Federal 1979 Models
Timing Set At:: 7.5deg BTDC @ 850-950 rpm (Man Trans), 900-1000 rpm (Auto Trans) w/strobe, vacumm hose connected
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 8.5-11deg Adv @ 7.9 In. Hg; Centrifugal: 8-13deg @ 1600 rpm, 20.5-24.5 @ 3400 rpm

Now add up the vac advance and the centrifugal advance and you get 29 - 35.5. Now add the initial of 7.5 and you get 36.5 to 43 total advance. If you had the scale on the engine you would see it ends at 40. When you rev the engine with the correct dist in it and look at the scale, you will see the light flash at the o in vor. This is about a 1/4" to the left of 40. This is correct.

[keifernet]

Just because the scale goes to 40 doesn't mean that the timing should advance that far. The stock distributors are timed at
ATDC.... No where have I seen where the stock vacume distribs should be timed at 7.5 BTDC...
Now the 009 should work just fine, if you time it correctly (where it runs best without pinging or overheating) and have the carb ect. tuned out. People who have the "flat spots" are usually not experieced enough to tune them out and get frustrated. If that's the cast then I agree get a stock unit, but don't run it at 40 plus total!

[keifernet]

Well, I will correct myself, I did find that on this model (1st info below same as what aufever posted) it is showing 7.5 BTDC, my apologies to aufever... I am mistaken....

All others seem to be 5 ATDC as I rememberd though. I may even be wrong on the total advance but still think that 40 is too much... Also most of my post was related to timing the 009 with a carb.
Stock distribs, FI ect. all make a diff.
I still think factory marks are only so good after all these years. Many of the engines in Vw's are not totally orig. or even close ( If you know yours is then time it that way), have been rebuilt and now have different compression ratio's ect. Different fuel systems, and who knows which distributor??? ( see timing an unknown engine in the www.type2.com library)
I think the best way is to time your own car/engine to where it runs best without pre ignition ping and overheating...




Bus & Pickup Late 1976-1978 All States, 1979 Federal * 2000

Distributor: VW 021-905-205P, Bosch 0231 168 005 > 022-905-205S, 0231 170 093
Note: 0231 170 093 dist primarily used on California Late 1976-1978 and all Federal 1979 Models
Can Use:
Points: 01 011
Condensor: 02 074
Rotor: 04 033
Note: 0231 168 005 dist originally equipped with Speed Limiting Rotor 04 016 (5400rpm)
Cap: 03 010
Coil: 00 012
Vacuum Can: 07 060
Ignition Wires: 09 171
Spark Plug: W8CC
Timing Set At:: 7.5deg BTDC @ 850-950 rpm (Man Trans), 900-1000 rpm (Auto Trans) w/strobe, vacumm hose connected
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 8.5-11deg Adv @ 7.9 In. Hg; Centrifugal: 8-13deg @ 1600 rpm, 20.5-24.5 @ 3400 rpm


Bus Calif 1979 * 2000

Distributor: VW 039-905-205C, Bosch 0237 022 009
Can Use: (Same as Vanagon Calif 80-83 Air Cooled - See Below)
Dist Hall Sender w/Parts: Bosch: 1237 011 050
Ignition Control Module (On Left Firewall): Bosch 0227 100 137
Rotor: 04 038
Cap: 03 010
Coil: 00 041
Vacuum Can: 07 163
Ignition Wires: 09 171
Spark Plug: W8CC
Timing Set At:: 5deg ATDC @ 800-950 rpm (Manual Trans), @ 850-1000 rpm (Auto Trans) w/strobe, vacuum hose(s) connected
Advance/Retard Range: Vacuum: 11-13deg Adv @ 9.4 In. Hg, 11-13deg Ret @ 9.4 In. Hg; Centrifugal: 9-13deg @ 1600 rpm, 12-16deg @ 2800 rpm, 21-25deg @ 3600 rpm
Note: In regards to the Vacuum Advance - Bentley Vanagon states that there is 9-12deg Advance @ 8.2 In. Hg, even though they are the same distributors - possible discrepancy?

[TimGud]

Are you sure about this? The mechanical advance is what changes where the rotor points in relation to crankshaft degrees.It sure seems a coincidence that what I have always been told to time them at adds up to the same as centrifical + initial timing for a total of in this case 32.5 deg. with the 022 dist. or a total of 30 deg with the 039 dist. 40 deg total advance is about all you would dare time a high performance Chevy at and seems too far advanced to me for an air-cooled engine to stay cool.I was under the impression that the vacuum advances purpose at higher rpm's was to retart the advance when low manifold vacuum occured and wasn't added on top of the mechanicals advance total.

[Karl]

Your second info is a dual vacuum advance dizzy, like 72 to 75. They time at 5 or 10 AFTER because they have vacuum retard AT IDLE.
If you look at that 11-13 degrees retard vacuum and 5 after intial timing, you will see that it is the same as the 76-78 with just vacuum advance. With 13 degrees at idle with manifold vacuum, as soon as you open the throttle, manifold vacuum goes away and the spring in the vacuum unit over-comes the lose of vacuum, and you get 13 degrees of instant advance = 7.5-8 before. Now add the centrifugal of 21-25 and the vacuum advance of 11-13 and you get 40 to 46 total advance.
Basic math.
And to the guy comparing this to Chevies = the Chevy is a V8. Yes, 40 is max you want to go before you start firing into the next cylinder. Again basic math: a circle is 360 degrees. Divide that by 8 and you get 45. Do not compare that with a 4 cylinder engine. You have 90 degrees between each terminal on the distributor cap.
But 48 is about as far as I would go on a type 4.
The vacuum advance changes timing by moving the breaker plate. Same as what happens when you move the body of the distributor.
Centrifugal advance changes timing by moving the dist cam lobes.

[keifernet]

Thanks aufever for the update and additional info/ explanation.... I guess the type 2/4's I've worked on with the stock dist, I just set at Idle and never revved them up to see what the total advance was...
Alot of the most recent ones had 009's anyway... and 40 degrees sounded too much.
I'm sure you would not have posted it if you weren't correct to begin with!
Learn something new every day! Thanks!

[TimGud]

I am no type 4 timing expert and may be wrong but everyone I talk to says 30-32 deg total. I also find aufevers story of 8 cylinder engine timing being limited by the space in the cap very interesting. Seems the simple math that 360 deg. divided by 8 giving 45 deg.timing max(Before it fires on the wrong cylinder?)has one small flaw,that the cam and therefore the distributor only rotates at half the speed of the crank,or in other words 720 deg. of crankshaft rotation for every 360 deg. of distributer rotation(unless we are talking about 2 cycle engines now) I was always under the impression that the time it took for the flame travel in the cylinder was what determined the amount of advance not the amount of cylinders.Oh ya,in Hot VW's All about performance vw engines 2,the fat performance type 4 engine has a 009 dist. in it and they say to time it at 30 deg. total advance. So if I am wrong about this one at least I am in good company.

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Well I think I found a part of the problem. I checked my dwell last night and it was around 60deg!!! I guess I didn't tighten the screw down enough and the points closed up on me. Using the few spare minutes I had, I adjusted to points and "ear" timed the motor and it seemed to run better. I have not checked the timing and am not sure if that would change the total advance???? I will hook up the light and check it this weekend but for now it seems to be better. I am not sure what set screw that Keifernet was talking about. Where would it be located? The book that I have says to turn the idle mixture screw out 1 turn. I am at 2 1/2 turns! I will not do anything at 1 turn. ARRRGGGHHH!!! I don't notice a flat spot, the bus has good power, I think that it runs a little warm though. Occasionally it will "run-on" like the heads are cooking. With no gauge I am just guessing. I though it might be because of the over-advance that I was getting. Thoughts?????

[keifernet]

Back off the tining, the running hot and pinging run on means you are too far advanced. You are sticking with the 009 for now?
The set screw I am refering to screws up from the bottom of the carb, it is in the front left hand corner on the side the throttle linkages are on. BUT depending on which manifold center section you have it may be covered up and you can't get to it, Get a mirror and look undet the edge of the manifold and see if the side of the carb hangs off enough. I know on most type 1's
you can get to it.
Work the linkages till you feel the 2nd barrel start kickin in and see the secondary linkage move, now see where where it goes back to rest? on top of that tiny screw stop.... ,tweak it a bit at a time if you can get to it and it will bring the overall idle up and you can make the other adjustments to smooth it out ( usually mixture screw in a bit and main idle set screw back off abit to lower idle to normal ....and time it again...
Hope you get it.... good luck