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Shut off..then no start
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adv rider
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:37 pm    Post subject: Shut off..then no start Reply with quote

Ok, I've been searching trying to find some info. Driving this morning, shut off. Attempt restart-cranking but no start. Immediately I remove column cover, try new ignition switch. Still no start. I worked on it this weekend,so I retrace whatever I touched-nothing. Soo.. I get towed home. Try different fuel/control relays-nothing. Try a different ECM-nothing.

Now confused,I check for fuel pressure-none. I do not hear pump run,or relays click. But I am alone, so it is difficult trying to listen from drivers seat. I check ground at fuel pump-ok, I check power-none. I follow to engine comp. connector-no power. Are there any connectors in the black box? that I need to check? Also I put in a TDI starter recently, could anything from the starter connections be giving me issues? I did order a fuel pump ,before I found that I had no power Embarassed .
Any advice, or links to more info appreciated
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adv rider
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:03 pm    Post subject: no start Reply with quote

It was running good too. I feel like the problem is right in front of me. I was trying to unplug, all the connectors in the engine compartment black box, but only 1 of them came apart.

Also the TDI starter is up against rad. hose, so I wonder about those old/hardened wires. I am going on a trip sunday-hopefully. So this has me stressed out..
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Last edited by adv rider on Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It could well be a connection at the starter as that is a common cause of this set of symptoms. On the starter wiring stud the large battery cable and an engine compartment red power wire both need to be well connected. If the red power wire comes loose while you are driving the engine will keep running from alternator power but once you shut it off it won't start again. It will crank and crank but not start.

Mark
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Dave Wood
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree about the connections at the starter. This is a common place that gets a lot of crude and could use a good cleaning. Check and clean all connections there. I had an intermittent starting problem and it turned out to be a loose starter wire, one of the smaller wires from the ignition.
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adv rider
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="crazyvwvanman"]It could well be a connection at the starter as that is a common cause of this set of symptoms. On the starter wiring stud the large battery cable and an engine compartment red power wire both need to be well connected. If the red power wire comes loose while you are driving the engine will keep running from alternator power but once you shut it off it won't start again. It will crank and crank but not start.

Thank you! I thought I had read that somewhere, but could not confirm it. I also plan on stopping by radio shack, and building the test harness you made.
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adv rider
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dwood443 wrote:
I agree about the connections at the starter. This is a common place that gets a lot of crude and could use a good cleaning. Check and clean all connections there. I had an intermittent starting problem and it turned out to be a loose starter wire, one of the smaller wires from the ignition.

The small wire with special plug on the TDI starter is pushed against hose. I am going outside, and checking now.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:34 am    Post subject: no start Reply with quote

Well I have no forward progress. Connections at starter do not move, when I pull on them . I have voltage in black box terminal, and at relays terminal 86.
I tried to check continuity between relay and coil, not sure if I was on correct
term. what is #15? is that the blk wires at coil? I don't seem to be getting the B+ voltage for 5 seconds. but not sure I tested correctly.

I have not checked for spark, since I know for sure that I have no fuel pump operation. Would having/or not having spark narrow down the diagnosis?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an excellent thread to help you.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=349429
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:07 am    Post subject: Re: no start Reply with quote

Whenever the key is on there should be 12 volts at the black wires that plug into one side of the coil. Without that you won't get fuel or spark.

Mark

adv rider wrote:
Well I have no forward progress. Connections at starter do not move, when I pull on them . I have voltage in black box terminal, and at relays terminal 86.
I tried to check continuity between relay and coil, not sure if I was on correct
term. what is #15? is that the blk wires at coil? I don't seem to be getting the B+ voltage for 5 seconds. but not sure I tested correctly.

I have not checked for spark, since I know for sure that I have no fuel pump operation. Would having/or not having spark narrow down the diagnosis?
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Merian
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you say it cranks but won't start - does it crank slow?

what happens when it cools down?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merian wrote:
you say it cranks but won't start - does it crank slow?

what happens when it cools down?

It cranks over fast,no different cold. I bought some diodes to build a test harness to try later today.

So if i don't have power at coil, is that really bad? as far as repairs go?

I am about ready to rent a u-haul van for my camping trip.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, that kind of problem is usually simple and cheap to fix if you are doing it yourself.

Mark


adv rider wrote:
............
So if i don't have power at coil, is that really bad? as far as repairs go?
I am about ready to rent a u-haul van for my camping trip.
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adv rider
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:35 pm    Post subject: no start Reply with quote

OK, feel like there's a chance for my trip. I made the crazyvwvanman test harness, van starts. Replaced ecu control relay-its runs, replace fuel pump relay-it runs. It won't run without power to the coil Crying or Very sad . I am not sure where to go from here.
I do have a Bentley, but I could never get past basic electrical. Reading wiring diagrams confuses me. Does the coil #15? black wires, have power when key is on? Any ideas? And thank you to everyone that has helped-I never would have gotten this far on my own.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:05 pm    Post subject: no start Reply with quote

Going thru Pro training manual: check for battery+ at terminal 15, with ignition coil on- if no voltage present . Repair wiring harness, well yeah... It would be nice to know where to look/and or test.

Has anyone dealt with this, and just added a power wire from somewhere else? How has it held up long term, and is there anything bad/unsafe about doing this? Thanks
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:22 pm    Post subject: Re: no start Reply with quote

You can fix this. There are only a few places where the trouble could be.

The key switch circuit has a black wire leaving it that takes power back to the engine compartment and powers the coil. I would start in the back. There is a black plastic wiring box in the corner. Open it up and find the black wires in there. That is where power comes from the key switch. The source black wire comes in from the side in a bundle with wires of other colors. Find that source black wire. The check for a connector or two in the box along that black wire and make sure they are clean and tight. Just the black wires. Use a voltmeter to test the source black wire for power when the key is on.

Mark



adv rider wrote:
Going thru Pro training manual: check for battery+ at terminal 15, with ignition coil on- if no voltage present . Repair wiring harness, well yeah... It would be nice to know where to look/and or test.

Has anyone dealt with this, and just added a power wire from somewhere else? How has it held up long term, and is there anything bad/unsafe about doing this? Thanks
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:17 pm    Post subject: Re: no start Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
You can fix this. There are only a few places where the trouble could be.

The key switch circuit has a black wire leaving it that takes power back to the engine compartment and powers the coil. I would start in the back. There is a black plastic wiring box in the corner. Open it up and find the black wires in there. That is where power comes from the key switch. The source black wire comes in from the side in a bundle with wires of other colors. Find that source black wire. The check for a connector or two in the box along that black wire and make sure they are clean and tight. Just the black wires. Use a voltmeter to test the source black wire for power when the key is on.

Mark


Thank you for the tips. I found the black wire, checked voltage- key on 12.6, check other side of connector-none. I was super excited, thought I was onto repairing it. replaced connector-no voltage, unplug and it Voltage. hmmm... it has voltage when unplugged, but none when connected. These are all yellow single pin connectors.

Does the loss of voltage when connected mean it has a bad ground?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:09 pm    Post subject: Re: no start Reply with quote

That is good progress. I assume you do have the wiring bypass tool completely unhooked during the voltage testing.

If the source wire has good voltage when unplugged from things down stream but loses the voltage when connected to them it can only mean one thing. The things downstream are drawing more current than the source can provide. So either the source is very weak or the draw is very strong. A weak source is the much more likely issue and known to occur. Have you heard about the D15 wiring pin failure that has come up here in various vans? The black wire in the wiring box comes from pin D15 of the dash fuse/relay panel. This is for 86-91 vans.

If you search this site you should find photos and examples of other people who have had this failure.

Mark

adv rider wrote:

Thank you for the tips. I found the black wire, checked voltage- key on 12.6, check other side of connector-none. I was super excited, thought I was onto repairing it. replaced connector-no voltage, unplug and it Voltage. hmmm... it has voltage when unplugged, but none when connected. These are all yellow single pin connectors.

Does the loss of voltage when connected mean it has a bad ground?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:17 pm    Post subject: d15 Reply with quote

Ok, I see. Expecting to see a melted D15 in the morning, without seeing everything I cant picture using D23 as an alternative. Is this the best way to go? Can I jump this wire at the fuse panel to make it work?

I hope the VW dealer might have some pins, otherwise...is there another type available at FLAPS?

Thank you Mark for all the electrical guidance you have given me.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:37 am    Post subject: Re: d15 Reply with quote

If it turns out to be a burned pin D15 then you can jumper around the bad connection. The key switch has a black wire from it to the fuse panel on pin A8 and then it leaves the fuse panel on D15. You can jumper between the black wire on A8 and the black wire on D15. You can't cut the wire to A8 though as it sends power to the fuse panel for other reasons in addition to feeding D15 (and D23).

The VW dealer sells new pins with a short wire attached to them. I don't have the part number handy for the larger pin size so that D23 could be used. That is what we need to do long term, move the black wire from weak pin D15 to heavy pin D23. I will look into that again.

Mark


adv rider wrote:
Ok, I see. Expecting to see a melted D15 in the morning, without seeing everything I cant picture using D23 as an alternative. Is this the best way to go? Can I jump this wire at the fuse panel to make it work?
.....
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:29 am    Post subject: No start Reply with quote

OK, I got to D15-yes its burnt up,and has corrosion on backside from being probed. I am very hopeful at this point,but.. when you mentioned jumper fromA8 to D15, do you mean side to side? D15 is the exit of fuse panel,so I assume it is for A8 also. So I could just solder in a wire between? or did you mean some other type of jump?

I got it,used jumper wire after stripping back some shielding. It started right up Razz . So now what is the trick to soldering to this old wire? I can't get it to stick,works fine on the new wire.
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Last edited by adv rider on Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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