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aeromech
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 17615
Location: San Diego, California
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 Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:34 am Post subject: |
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Tom,
Good luck installing the steering box. I've done a couple and usually have a tough time removing the pitman arm. I even bought a special puller to use for the next job I do.
Steve,
I've been trying to locate a good peg and have seen the ones from Europe. At $100+ they seem pretty expensive but soon I may need to dig deep and just buy one.
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12846
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 52719
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:42 am Post subject: |
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John Deere corn head grease is another option.
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Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42380
Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| aeromech wrote: |
Tom,
Good luck installing the steering box. I've done a couple and usually have a tough time removing the pitman arm. I even bought a special puller to use for the next job I do.
Steve,
I've been trying to locate a good peg and have seen the ones from Europe. At $100+ they seem pretty expensive but soon I may need to dig deep and just buy one. |
Yes - I suspect that price is a monopoly thing.
I looked up the actual page in Bentley. It calls for hypoid gear oil in both the early and late steering boxes. STa-lube GL4 is a hypoid gear oil. The same would be true for any GL5 EP oil.
On the subject of GL4 vs GL5 in the trans. I was reading some of Rick Long's writing the other day. The reason GL5 cannot be used in factory built bus transmissions is that the parts were moly coated and the GL5 destroys the moly coating causing issues. If the trans has been rebuilt with the non-moly coated replacement syncros GL5 can be used.
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"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin |
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Tom Powell
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2005
Posts: 4855
Location: Kaneohe
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| aeromech wrote: |
Tom,
Good luck installing the steering box. I've done a couple and usually have a tough time removing the pitman arm. I even bought a special puller to use for the next job I do. |
When I took off the OG pitman arm it was a struggle. I tried several different pullers and they all fell off when the arms spread. I went to the nearby FLAPS (Autozone) and rented this tool:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=600336&highlight=tool+pitman+arm+removal
It was still a struggle but that tool did the job. Went back to AZFLAPS and rented the tool again and it was a piece of cake this time. Discovered that the rebuilt steering box did not come with a cover for the filler hole, but I had another used box with a cover. Decided to use Sta-Lube GL-4 for lubricant. I had enough left over from a transmission lube change to fill the the first replacement steering box, but none for this rebuilt box. The last Sta-Lube GL-4 I bought was from NAPA in central LA. I'll be ordering from Amazon this time and it will be delivered to the door.
Last night I started to install the rebuilt steering box, but discovered the metal coupler on the steering box, the steering shaft and rubber coupler were 90* off. To center the wheels the steering wheel spokes would have to vertical. WTF? Did I do it wrong before? WTF? Do I have the wrong steering box? WTF? I am doing it wrong now? WTF? Do I put it together as is and try to get the steering wheel spokes horizontal with drag link adjustment? WTF? Decided to have a beer and think about it overnight.
Woke up this morning thinking about it. What if the groove for the clamping bolt on the steering box shafts are aligned differently in the two boxes? Put both boxes on the bench and centered them at 1 3/8 turns from each stop. Voila, the groove for the clamping bolt was 90* different. WTF? Why would they be different? Aren't these parts supposed to be interchangeable? Voila, what difference dose it make on the assembly line? You put it together one way or you put it together the other way. It's not a propeller on an airplane that is supposed to turn CW or CCW. 90* off, 180* off, 270* off as long as the wheels are straight and the steering wheel spokes are horizontal it all works.
The good news is that my daughter is here and she is the one that is lying on her back and dropping the bolts through the couplers. Sometimes my fat fingers are an excuse for someone else to do the difficult things that require dexterity.
My grandson just graduated in Oregon and drove my parent's Honda back here to SoCal. PITA to jack up the Honda and took it for an oil and filter change to the guys that usually do muffler work. The next day went to check the oil level and it was overfilled. Made a ramp out of scrap wood and got under the vehicle to drain some oil. WTF is this oil spot under the car? Got the drain pan and wrench. WTF? Why don't I need the wrench to loosen the plug? Drained some oil but was surprised that it didn't look like brand new oil. It was clearer than before and not gritty, but darker than I expected.
Taught my grandson how to change spark plugs on the Honda yesterday and he'll be teaching his sister how to change spark plugs on her car today.
Bottom Line:
Things are sometimes not as you expect them to be.
Get a nimble relative for some of awkward jobs.
Double check the work that others have done for you.
Do it yourself if you want it done right.
Teach the children well and they'll be be independent.
Aloha
tp |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23094
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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That...and the fact that when the federal gov.....at the request of the state of california....had lead alloy removed from the brass used by the entire brass industry, it changed the alloy enough that the acid level that precipitates over time from the base oil and metals in earlier series gear oils....became corrosive to later non-leaded brass alloy, synchros.
Actually this is all fixable in a simpler method (the corrosion issue). Because many recirculating ball type steering boxes (not what you have on the bus)......can run a couple of lifetimes and never ever have their oil replaced....unless a seal fails.......the gear lube whether its thickneded of not....becomes quite acid.
To keep this from attacking the platings and bearings...virtually, every recirculating ball type of steering box, most PTO's and even some worm and sector types.....have at least one component that is copper plated.....or in the case of larger units.mm.literally, have a copper plate or block inside.
This is a, sacrifical copper part that through oxidization by the acidic gear oil.....turns bright green.
It blew me away when I rebuilt two steering gear boxes last year and open it up to find the ball nut is bright green. When cleaned its shiney copper. Had to research why they would plate one part copper. Tons of info on it out there
Just putying sacrifical copper parts into the transmission would also solve most of the issues. Ray |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42380
Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Tom - here is how you set that box up.
You turn it until you are about centered. Then you will feel a spot that has a little more drag. That is dead center on the box. Depending on the type wire you have in the column - year, you want it as little twisted as possible when n center. Some years do not have a wire in the center of the column.
Line the steering wheel up centered on the centered gearbox
Put the arm back on. There should be marks for RHD and LHD.
Check the steering - you should feel a tiny bit of drag thru center right when the wheel is centered.
Center the tires as best you can. You can take a long piece of string from the back of the rear tire to the front tire with the solid tie rod, and use it to eyeball if the tire is parallel to the string just before it touches,
Adjust the drag link and torque everything. That should get you really close. Use the drag link to adjust the centering. The wheel should always be centered at the spot with a little more drag. If you count the turns they should be about equal in both directions.
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"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin |
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Tom Powell
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2005
Posts: 4855
Location: Kaneohe
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| Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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DAGNABIT
Got back underneath and realized that I cannot just rotate something 90* If I did then the steering shaft coupler and the steering box coupler would be lined up. They are supposed to be at 90* to each other and joined by the rubber coupling. The groove for the clamping bolt in the rebuilt is different by 90* from the other boxes and that would make the steering wheel spokes vertical when the wheels are straight ahead.
I plan to call the rebuilder in the morning and ask him about the problem. I suppose that I could install this rebuilt steering wheel box as is and bring the steering wheel spokes back to horizontal by adjusting the drag link. Off hand that doesn't seem like the proper solution.
I have been dealing with three steering boxes:
The OG went back to the rebuilder as a core. It leaked, had play and clunk. The replacement was a used part from TheSamba and put on the vehicle. It had play and clunk also and was removed. The rebuilt is ready to install, but has a 90* difference in the groove for the clamping bolt.
Possibly the clunk is from another source. I could feel the clunk when driving and turning and also when the vehicle was on jack stands and the wheels off the ground. If it still occurs after a steering box is installed I'll be doing suspension inspections and maintenance.
Part numbers for the replacement are:
VW 211415049F ZE 812955105 883893471
Part numbers for the rebuilt are:
VW 211415049F ZE 812955105 664842879
No part numbers for the OG box that went as a core.
Doesn't look like I'll get this job finished before I return to Hawaii on Thursday.
DAGNABIT
Aloha
tp |
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Tom Powell
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2005
Posts: 4855
Location: Kaneohe
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
Tom - here is how you set that box up.
You turn it until you are about centered. Then you will feel a spot that has a little more drag. That is dead center on the box. Depending on the type wire you have in the column - year, you want it as little twisted as possible when n center. Some years do not have a wire in the center of the column.
Line the steering wheel up centered on the centered gearbox
Put the arm back on. There should be marks for RHD and LHD.
Check the steering - you should feel a tiny bit of drag thru center right when the wheel is centered.
Center the tires as best you can. You can take a long piece of string from the back of the rear tire to the front tire with the solid tie rod, and use it to eyeball if the tire is parallel to the string just before it touches,
Adjust the drag link and torque everything. That should get you really close. Use the drag link to adjust the centering. The wheel should always be centered at the spot with a little more drag. If you count the turns they should be about equal in both directions. |
I plan on doing all that but the immediate problem I have is:
The groove for the coupler on the rebuilt box is 90* from the OG box. Haven't installed the rebuilt box yet, but if I do the steering wheel spokes will be vertical instead of horizontal. What's your opinion on bringing the spokes back to horizontal by adjusting the drag link?
I plan to call Kenny at Wolfgang tomorrow and find why and if. I'd rather have a duplicate of the OG than adjusting the drag link.
Aloha
tp |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42380
Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:58 am Post subject: |
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center the box and mark it. It must feel tiny drag thru the center
Install the steel adapter to it where the bolt goes thru the groove
Install the puck and steering shaft
Pull the steering wheel and center it
Use the drag link ONLY to center the wheels to the box.
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"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin |
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Tom Powell
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2005
Posts: 4855
Location: Kaneohe
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
... Pull the steering wheel and center it
Use the drag link ONLY to center the wheels to the box. |
Thanks for the reply. It confirms the fact that I don't want to use drag link adjustment to correct the problem. I talked to Gary this morning and he has a steering wheel puller and I might just borrow it from him or head South and do it there. I don't especially want to pull the turn signal switch and steering wheel, but that may be the best route unless I can get a different rebuilt box with the correct groove orientation.
It took some effort to get my turn signal repairs done several years ago.
Aloha
tp |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52271
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
center the box and mark it. It must feel tiny drag thru the center
Install the steel adapter to it where the bolt goes thru the groove
Install the puck and steering shaft
Pull the steering wheel and center it
Use the drag link ONLY to center the wheels to the box. |
Something tells me that the "tight" spot in this box is going to be 90* off center. Don't know this for sure, but suspect it. It should certainly be checked and verified before any other work is done. |
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Tom Powell
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2005
Posts: 4855
Location: Kaneohe
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Something tells me that the "tight" spot in this box is going to be 90* off center. Don't know this for sure, but suspect it. It should certainly be checked and verified before any other work is done. |
I hadn't even considered that, but if the rebuilt box was installed with the tight spot centered, wheels straight, and the steering wheel removed and rotated 90* it should be ok.
However I have chosen to contact the rebuilder and return the rebuilt box in exchange for a box with the correct clamp bolt orientation for my camper. I'd rather spend money on postage than remove the turn signal switch and remove and rotate the steering wheel.
Aloha
tp |
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dvancleve
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2013
Posts: 129
Location: Chandler, AZ
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| John Deere corn head grease is another option. |
I'm going to be replacing my trashed South American bug steering box with what I think is a good old German one. Mine was originally oil filled, but based on what I've read I want to fill it with "pourable" grease so it can't (easily) leak out. John Deere Corn Head grease is the cheapest and easiest to get that I have found, is an appropriate lube if I get the box good and full 
Would it be better to keep looking for an NLGI grade 00 grease instead?
Thanks, Doug
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'62 ragtop bug w/ '71 1600 dual port |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23094
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| dvancleve wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
| John Deere corn head grease is another option. |
I'm going to be replacing my trashed South American bug steering box with what I think is a good old German one. Mine was originally oil filled, but based on what I've read I want to fill it with "pourable" grease so it can't (easily) leak out. John Deere Corn Head grease is the cheapest and easiest to get that I have found, is an appropriate lube if I get the box good and full
Would it be better to keep looking for an NLGI grade 00 grease instead?
Thanks, Doug |
Corn head grease may not be what you want. Corn head (meaning for the corn harvestinh head drive on a farm combine)......is a bery special thixotropic grease....meaning it is HIGHLY shear thinning.....meaning at rest.....its a thick grease......until whatever is in it...starts moving. Then it thins to an oil consistency and then re-solidifes when you are no longer moving.
How much movement it takes to "shear thin" in a steering box that runs maybe a few rpm max.....and what its going to do in cold weather mornings...dont know. But.....the lubricant type is correct. Its used on combines that have the same issues....keeping lube in the gear box when normal gear oils fail to stay in.
There are specific thickened oils made just for steering gear boxes.....the link to the Penright product is one. Ray |
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dvancleve
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2013
Posts: 129
Location: Chandler, AZ
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23094
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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Link is not working. Did you get Corn head grease?.....if so....it will be interestkng to hear how it works. Ray |
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old DKP driver
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2005
Posts: 4145
Location: Los Gatos,Ca.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:07 pm Post subject: grease |
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Yepper's
Cornhead grease will suffice for your Vehicle
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V.W.owner since 1967 |
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Wasted youth
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 5173
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:54 am Post subject: |
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Just puting sacrifical copper parts into the transmission would also solve most of the issues. -Ray
How about a solid copper drain plug...with a magnetic core?
Some of the waste heat exchanger equipment I operated years ago in Uncle Sam's Canoe Club had sacrificial zinc anodes. Helped keep the seawater-fed shell and tube coolers from rotting away. |
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dvancleve
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2013
Posts: 129
Location: Chandler, AZ
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| Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Link is not working. Did you get Corn head grease?.....if so....it will be interestkng to hear how it works. Ray |
Fixed the link, it is Super S 00 grease in a 1qt. gear oil type bottle. Cornhead grease would have been quite a bit cheaper but is a 0 grease and comes in a grease gun tube...
Doug
Link changed
Vendor Tractor Supply
Super S 00 grease in a 1qt. gear oil type bottle.
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/super-s-cotton-picker-spindle-grease-00?cm_vc=-10005
Tcash
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'62 ragtop bug w/ '71 1600 dual port |
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