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Chubber
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Joined: November 12, 2003
Posts: 349
Location: Clermont, Central Florida
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 Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:01 pm Post subject: How I remove ball joints in 10 minutes each. No special tool |
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I'm rebuilding the front end of my '71 Bus and thought I would share my method for pulling out the ball joints on the trailing arms.
Basic steps:
1) Cut off the top of the joint with a cutting disk or grinder. Hammer out the stub.
2) Sawzall or hacksaw sideways through the ball joint shell in two places 1/2" apart. Cut 80% of the way through the metal. Cold chisel that piece of metal out.
3) Make one more cut opposite the now missing piece and fold the edges of the ball joint shell inwards. That only takes one or two whacks with the hammer and chisel.
I made a little video to show how it's done. It's about 6 minutes and details the complete removal of a single ball joint. I didn't even remove the rubber boot from the ball joint until I had the stub out.
Link
This is how I got the ball joints out of the trailing arms on my 1971 VW Bus. I didn't need a super press, a welder or a torch. In fact I barely scratched the paint on the arms.
Only tools needed:
4 1/2" grinder
Cutting disk or grinding disk
Hand sledge. 2-4 lbs is ideal.
Cold chisel. Don't use a screwdriver.
Sawzall or hack saw. It might take you 30 minutes each if you have to use a hacksaw.
Sorry the end stuff scrolled by too quickly, here is the text:
The top and bottom arms are reversable side-to-side. Because the new joint is a friction fit, press the new ones in from the opposite direction and use the arms on the other side. That will also even the bearing and torsion arm wear.
Keep on Bussin'
Chubber
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Chubber
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kreemoweet
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Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 4107
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:44 pm Post subject: Re: How I remove ball joints in 10 minutes each. No special |
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| Chubber wrote: |
| The top and bottom arms are reversable side-to-side. |
Are you sure about that?
EDIT: OK, I was wondering because my parts book shows different part numbers for L and R, but I see its for the arm with joint installed, which would then
make them side-specific.
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alikatcraig
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Joined: September 09, 2007
Posts: 563
Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: How I remove ball joints in 10 minutes each. No special |
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Way quicker with a mig welder after hammering the rod through the back of the ball joint (grinding the back down first helps a lot). They just drop out.
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LivinInnaVWBus
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Joined: October 07, 2013
Posts: 968
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| Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:31 pm Post subject: Re: How I remove ball joints in 10 minutes each. No special |
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| NICE! That video will help many |
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Chubber
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Joined: November 12, 2003
Posts: 349
Location: Clermont, Central Florida
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:48 am Post subject: Re: How I remove ball joints in 10 minutes each. No special |
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| alikatcraig wrote: |
| Way quicker with a mig welder after hammering the rod through the back of the ball joint (grinding the back down first helps a lot). They just drop out. |
I was going to do the MIG way, but the videos I saw used either a stick welder with 1-2 sticks per joint, or a TON of mig wire.
Getting out the sawzall and cutting the joints took less time than waiting for the joints to cool down after welding and I didn't even bugger my paint.
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Chubber
'71 Deluxe 7 Passenger Bus (Resto thread)
'72 Fastback
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alikatcraig
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Joined: September 09, 2007
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Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: How I remove ball joints in 10 minutes each. No special |
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I just ran 2 long beads, one either side of the inside of the joint and poured a little cold water on the joint body to shrink it. Pretty quick and painless. I had seen a friend use a Sawzall and he cut into the arm so was wary of that method. It worked though.
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mattlockwood
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Joined: June 15, 2012
Posts: 363
Location: KCMO
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:22 pm Post subject: Re: How I remove ball joints in 10 minutes each. No special |
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| alikatcraig wrote: |
| I just ran 2 long beads, one either side of the inside of the joint and poured a little cold water on the joint body to shrink it. Pretty quick and painless. I had seen a friend use a Sawzall and he cut into the arm so was wary of that method. It worked though. |
You hammer out the ball joint rod, then run a bead on the inside of what’s left of the ball joint, douse it in cold water, and this shrinks the ball joint metal and it falls out of the arm?
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RalphWiggam
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Joined: February 02, 2018
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Location: SouthEast
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:24 am Post subject: Re: How I remove ball joints in 10 minutes each. No special tool |
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| But dont you need a press to install the new ones? |
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
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Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:02 am Post subject: Re: How I remove ball joints in 10 minutes each. No special tool |
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| RalphWiggam wrote: |
| But dont you need a press to install the new ones? |
not once the torsion arms are swollen and the temper changed by heating them.
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:52 am Post subject: Re: How I remove ball joints in 10 minutes each. No special tool |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| RalphWiggam wrote: |
| But dont you need a press to install the new ones? |
not once the torsion arms are swollen and the temper changed by heating them. |
Steve....So just to be clear.....you are saying this is a bad thing? It looks like it to me.
Ray |
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RalphWiggam
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: How I remove ball joints in 10 minutes each. No special tool |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
| RalphWiggam wrote: |
| But dont you need a press to install the new ones? |
not once the torsion arms are swollen and the temper changed by heating them. |
Steve....So just to be clear.....you are saying this is a bad thing? It looks like it to me.
Ray |
My question was obviously rhetorical. Point being, if you need a press for any part of the job, why not use it to take them out as well?
I can't tell if sgkent is being sarcastic or not. |
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SGKent
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: How I remove ball joints in 10 minutes each. No special tool |
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| Quote: |
Steve....So just to be clear.....you are saying this is a bad thing? It looks like it to me.
Ray |
Ray - there are multiple methods of taking the ball joints out that use MIG or Acetylene Oxygen welding. The idea is that the heat swells everything and then the ball joint can be driven out easily. I've seen threads here where people freeze the ball joint while the outside is still hot and they actually fall out. Those arms are a specific steel that is forged and honed to a specific size. When the ball joint is pressed in it is also staked with a tool that locks the ball joint in. Some folks grind the area that is staked. Any person who has worked with steel knows that when steel is heated red hot it changes the temper of the steel. I've never heard of one failing from that process but then again the owners who had it happen may not be around to discuss it. My preference is ALWAYS use the best methods and not the short cuts. As an example, as a professional mechanic I have seen mechanics remove the fan belt in 2 seconds using a screw driver and a click of the starter. To put it back on one puts it part way back on and clicks the starter again. But I have also seen those same cars back in a month from a failed belt, or a bad water pump etc.. Personally I spend the extra minute, loosen the bracket and remove belt. Some people only care about saving time and saying they followed the manufacturer's best practice. We are a nation of people with short attention spans these days, many people do not know how to take a deep breath, and it is all about winning. Finding a way to torch a torsion arm to save time is winning to some people. I went to take the Scotties to be groomed this week. Still haven't recovered from the stress. Sunrise Blvd is 45 MPH south of US 50. It goes up to 55 MPH near Grantline. Doing 60 MPH trying to keep from being run over at least 10% of the cars were doing triple digits. There are also fully loaded rock trucks doing 40 MPH. Every year there are terrible accidents down there. It is no different anywhere in the USA these days. And mechanics take short cuts too, so yes I would say it is not a good practice but I am 70 now and what the S do I know, right?
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: How I remove ball joints in 10 minutes each. No special tool |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Quote: |
Steve....So just to be clear.....you are saying this is a bad thing? It looks like it to me.
Ray |
Ray - there are multiple methods of taking the ball joints out that use MIG or Acetylene Oxygen welding. The idea is that the heat swells everything and then the ball joint can be driven out easily. I've seen threads here where people freeze the ball joint while the outside is still hot and they actually fall out. Those arms are a specific steel that is forged and honed to a specific size. When the ball joint is pressed in it is also staked with a tool that locks the ball joint in. Some folks grind the area that is staked. Any person who has worked with steel knows that when steel is heated red hot it changes the temper of the steel. I've never heard of one failing from that process but then again the owners who had it happen may not be around to discuss it. My preference is ALWAYS use the best methods and not the short cuts. As an example, as a professional mechanic I have seen mechanics remove the fan belt in 2 seconds using a screw driver and a click of the starter. To put it back on one puts it part way back on and clicks the starter again. But I have also seen those same cars back in a month from a failed belt, or a bad water pump etc.. Personally I spend the extra minute, loosen the bracket and remove belt. Some people only care about saving time and saying they followed the manufacturer's best practice. We are a nation of people with short attention spans these days, many people do not know how to take a deep breath, and it is all about winning. Finding a way to torch a torsion arm to save time is winning to some people. I went to take the Scotties to be groomed this week. Still haven't recovered from the stress. Sunrise Blvd is 45 MPH south of US 50. It goes up to 55 MPH near Grantline. Doing 60 MPH trying to keep from being run over at least 10% of the cars were doing triple digits. There are also fully loaded rock trucks doing 40 MPH. Every year there are terrible accidents down there. It is no different anywhere in the USA these days. And mechanics take short cuts too, so yes I would say it is not a good practice but I am 70 now and what the S do I know, right? |
Yep.....agree. There are many "ways" to take these joints out.....but I would not be using heat much over 400-500 F....personally.
There are other vehicles...most of them old...and many of them trucks...that have had the same problem with massive ball joints.
The best "heat" method I have seen used...and it takes a little more experience and welding skill than I have.....is as you have described. Mig or tig weld a bead...and then shock it cold to get it to contract. Even then it may not fall out...but it loosens it enough to allow less violent press work.
This is also a method used on some valve seats. However...the object is to keep the surrounding metal (the arm or head)....cool....and only weld to the joint itself.
Ray |
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rugblaster
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: How I remove ball joints in 10 minutes each. No special tool |
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Does anyone know what temp these trailing arms are forged at the factory? What is more dangerious, heating the arms at less than their forged temp, or use all the factory press tools and having to wrap the work in moving blankets to avoid all the flying press tools?
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LouFilia
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Location: SLO, CA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: How I remove ball joints in 10 minutes each. No special tool |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| RalphWiggam wrote: |
| But dont you need a press to install the new ones? |
not once the torsion arms are swollen and the temper changed by heating them. |
First off, Ralph, it's much easier to get them on. In order to take them out requires specialized tools, you could probably even get them on with the crappy manual ball joint installers they sell at the autoparts store (I have a press, so I have no idea how well they work). Most people just send them out to a vendor that you can find with the search bar and that's what I'll had planned to do when I needed them. Now???
Second, SGKent, I want to point out that the post is about how to get the ball joints out WITHOUT WELDING the living crap out of them. I am sure everyone here with many years experience with mechanical things has had to remove a bearing race this way at some point. It's certainly not ideal, but it will not do any damage to the metallurgy. The danger of nicking the torsion arm with the sawmill is moderate, but very real.
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SGKent
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:08 pm Post subject: Re: How I remove ball joints in 10 minutes each. No special tool |
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| rugblaster wrote: |
| Does anyone know what temp these trailing arms are forged at the factory? What is more dangerious, heating the arms at less than their forged temp, or use all the factory press tools and having to wrap the work in moving blankets to avoid all the flying press tools? |
The forges heat the metal to red yellow hot and pound the shit out of them. That changes the grain of the metal and works out the carbon imperfections. Then they are cooled at a specific rate which hardens the metals to a rockwell scale hardness. Reheating the metal and cooling it at any different rate changes the hardness of the metal. The "instructions" to get a specific steel are very specific. X amount of different minerals, Y temperatures, Z number of strikes, cooling AB time, etc.. And along comes backyard Joe with a welder thinking he'll be the one who beats the system......... . But I read it on the Internet......... and saw it on a TV program....... .
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:10 am Post subject: Re: How I remove ball joints in 10 minutes each. No special tool |
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| rugblaster wrote: |
| Does anyone know what temp these trailing arms are forged at the factory? What is more dangerious, heating the arms at less than their forged temp, or use all the factory press tools and having to wrap the work in moving blankets to avoid all the flying press tools? |
The low end of the annealing temperature for steel is about 500°F, so if you aim for 400°F you should be good. |
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mattlockwood
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:55 am Post subject: Re: How I remove ball joints in 10 minutes each. No special tool |
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...now we’re talking about dog grooming 
So, knocking the ball joint out, then welding a bead/shock cooling on the inside of what’s left of the ball joint in the torsion arm, is effective and non damaging, or no??
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:14 am Post subject: Re: How I remove ball joints in 10 minutes each. No special tool |
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| mattlockwood wrote: |
...now we’re talking about dog grooming
So, knocking the ball joint out, then welding a bead/shock cooling on the inside of what’s left of the ball joint in the torsion arm, is effective and non damaging, or no?? |
The point is to keep the arm itself as cool as possible. No its not non-damaging if you get the arm too hot.
As Wildthings noted.....depending on the steel....what its alloy is and how it was hardened.....getting over 500F MIGHT partially anneal it.
Annealing means making more soft and ductile (in a crude nutshell). That also means that when you press or interference fit something into an annealed metal.....the metal GIVES. So instead of having as much of an interference fit that you need to keep the joint pressed in.....it may slip out at some point.
The weld bead is more dense that the metal you are welding it to and being hot enough thats its molten....its contraction rate is severe when you cool it. This will pull and distort the part you weld to.....and allow it to contract beyond normal.....making it loose wo you can get it out.
The trick is to keep wet rags on the outside of the arm....or have it paryially submerged in a water bath. Ray |
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LouFilia
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:26 am Post subject: Re: How I remove ball joints in 10 minutes each. No special tool |
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| mattlockwood wrote: |
...now we’re talking about dog grooming
So, knocking the ball joint out, then welding a bead/shock cooling on the inside of what’s left of the ball joint in the torsion arm, is effective and non damaging, or no?? |
No. The welding gets the bearing race literally red hot. Thanks to heat transfer this will also heat that end of the torsion arm. Then you splash with cold water. This leads to war page and changes in temper. A forged arm can take a lot, but if it breaks or the ball joint falls out you will have a very very bad accident. I would recommend doing to spec, but it you can do it like he shows in the video and explains in the topic post and it will not damage the torsion arm. Of course, If you are not handy with a sawzall, you might nick the arm.
As always, just my opinion
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