On demand hot water shower install

[macjack]

Spring camping season is upon us!
I have installed and used an on demand, on board hot water/shower setup for the westy and thought I would share it with the group. [edit: note there are some hyperlinks in the text to find the parts on Amazon and reference another shower thread on the Samba]

Basic idea is to use a propane based system, not have to start the van, and have it tuck all away inside a cabinet when not in use. Also, use external jerry cans for water supply (RMW tire swing away in the back holds two 5 gallon jerry cans of water). Shower under the rear hatch, with curtain clipped to the lip of the hatch when open.
It uses a design similar to cvbill's, but in a stock rear cabinet, simplified, and with a few modifications.

It uses the Eccotemp L5 for on demand hot water, connected to a small seaflo pump. The seaflo pump creates 35 psi and 1.2 gpm, so a good match for the L5 operating specs of 20-80 psi and .5-1.4 gpm.

the eccotemp on the right and small propane bottle in the back just to the left of the eccotemp

I currently have the eccotemp connected with a small 1lb propane bottle. When I re-paint and install my westy propane tank under the van, I will plumb it into that. The eccotemp fits onto the small bottles with a small adapter and everything hooks up nicely. We have had many showers on it so far (small 1lb bottle), and it is really nice. Not sure how many showers per 1lb bottle, but I heard about 1 hr of water flow. It is very efficient and only heats what you use immediately. The little 1lb bottle is still going strong, and we keep a spare in the van for when it runs out. I do look forward to not having to recycle/throw out those little bottles, eventually.

The whole thing is quite compact. Everything fits in the rear cabinet, including the heater, propane bottle, pump, filter, hoses, shower curtain, etc.
I cut the lower shelf in half and remounted it with bracket support, and there is room for several other things in there on the half shelf, like extra bottles of motor oil, etc., if needed.

The main modification from cvbill's was to add ventilation, so that the cabinet can be left closed and the propane combustion can proceed with fresh air and exhaust.

How it works:
1. pull out the supply line (on the left), which has about 4 feet of hose (most of the braided hose in the last pic is the supply hose, pushed back through the cabinet hole when not using it), and put it in the jerry can.

2. pull the marine knob (round middle knob), it powers the pump to pressurize the system to 35psi and powers two AV fans (in the black housing in the pics). I flipped one of the fans in the housing from how they come so that now there is one fan blowing in in one fan blowing out.
3. Turn on flow switch on shower-head and enjoy the hot water flowing out. The hand held showerhead (tucked above the cabinet for storage in the first picture) has an on/off switch built into it and the pump has a built in power switch based on pressure, so once pressurized, the pump only runs when you have the showerhead switch on, and water flows.

The pump has a small pressure tank built in, so there is no pulsing. When water flows, a mini turbine in the propane unit spins and turns the heater on, heating the water as it flows by, like immediately. The two knobs on the eccotemp control flow rate and temp. we got it set how we like it and just leave it there, that way, we don't have to open the cabinet. Just pull the knob, the fans turn on, the system pressurizes itself, and you are ready to turn on the showerhead.

I actually like leaving the showerhead unattached to the vehicle, so one handed showering makes you more likely to shut off the water for full lathering, etc. The showerhead will hook onto the tire swing away while lathering. Can get two showers from one 5gallon jerry can easily that way. Pulled very cold water from a high altitude mountain river outside Telluride, into the jerry can, and still the heater got it up to temp no problem. Of course, a particle filter on the end of the supply line helps, plus an inline filter before the pump keeps everything running smoothly.
Power draw is minimal, and no starting the van. Keep 2 extra D batteries (for the ignition in the eccotemp) in the van as spares and a supply of propane, and you've got hot showering, or dish rinsing, wherever you have water. This setup is currently to be used with the rear hatch open, to allow the ventilation to the outside. The pull switch is intentionally placed with room to turn on only if the hatch is open, as a failsafe. When I install a sink into the main cabin, I may want to plumb this into that sink, but we would need to open the rear hatch to operate the heater.
A different option from the heat exchanger approach. Keeps the wifey happy, and everyone more clean and fresh smelling!
-macjack
_________________
87 TDI Syncro Westy
81 Westy (sold)
80 Rabbit Wolfsburg (rolled)
Bike as primary transportation

[newfisher]

Best yet! nice work

[djkeev]

An FYI......

Link to the hot water heater he installed ^^^^^

http://www.eccotemp.com/search.php?search_query=L5

Dave
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Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[macjack]

I tried to insert url links for the various parts. They show up in blue for me, and link to Amazon. Are they working?

[SyncroButter]

Badass! I am installing a Bostig/Zetec in my Westy and was thinking about pursuing a similar install but inside the (newly spacious) engine bay... very inspiring!
_________________
Grant
In the stable: 1986 Syncro Westfalia/Bostig, 1989 Doka Tristar, 1974 Vespa Rally 200, 1973 Vespa Primavera 125, 1963 Solex 2200, 1938 Buick Special
Gone but not forgotten: 1989 Porsche 944, 1973 Standard Beetle

[djkeev]

[macjack]

[GypsyDriver]

This is cool. I have an ecotemp L10 I use for an outdoor shower I built for my home. Its an excellent water heater. I'm going to get the L5 for my Westy, but hadn't considered permanently mounting it. Can you post better pictures of how you mounted it? Also, I plan to plumb into the onboard water tank simply by tapping into the drain plug under the van and running a line to the back of the van with an inline pump similar to the one you used.

[Howesight]

Hey Macjack: Very nice execution and well thought-out design! Thanks for posting the pics and specs.
_________________
'86 Syncro Westy SVX

[macjack]

Thanks everyone for the kind words. It did take some planning, lots of measurements, and some time with the parts sitting on the patio table for several days getting all the fittings for the filter, elbows here and there, etc. But then it just slid in and worked like I hoped right out of the gate.

GypsyDriver, the mounting is super simple, and in fact not permanent. I will try to get some pics of it, but there are raised tabs built in to the back of the L5 to slide over screw heads or something. I took a piece of plexiglas, cut it down to be as big as all of those 3(?) screw slots, and then mounted the plexiglas to the L5 with the bolts facing in. This was as much to make it easier to work with on the patio table, since the unit itself has the sharp ends of screws poking out from inside through the back, scratching whatever surface I laid it on. So then I could just lay it around while getting the fittings on. I then kept the plexiglas and created similar holes in it, to hang on screws which I mounted inside the cabinet. So basically, the whole unit can be lifted up and off the screws and removed to change the batteries (whenever that happens) make plumbing modifications, etc. The L5 really doesn't need the plexiglas with its own screw slots, but I figured it would insulate a little and keep the aging plastic laminate from getting melted!

Then it is a matter of placement. I wanted it a couple of inches off the bottom, for air flow, and certainly a couple more inches from the top. I have a seat belt unit in there for a rear shoulder belt install, and so I needed to keep a little away from that. But once you cut the shelf in half, it fits. The rest is getting the lengths of tubing and hose to lie in there right. Finding a way to loop the propane hose and let the bottle rest on the bottom of the cabinet required an elbow fitting on the bottom: the propane hose connection and water lines go straight into the bottom of the unit, so I wanted to put elbows wherever I could to keep the clearance underneath it cleaner, and reduce the chances of kinking. (I'll try to get a picture of the bottom, too)

Also, because of the seat belt, I took the L5's hood looking thing off its screws on the top, and tilted it and rescrewed it, so that it fits in there better. Without the seatbelt part, it would likely fit just fine. That hood part is particularly for the combustion exhaust flow, which prompted me to get fans for the airflow. When I found how to install the fans to keep everything flowing nicely, I was okay with putting it inside a cabinet, with tighter clearances around it than they recommend. I think they really don't want you putting it directly on the ground, for instance, for obvious reasons. But in the cabinet it is really only a few inches from the bottom. I cut the shelf further from the L5 than necessary to physically fit, to allow more airflow.

There are a few changes that I would make. First, the handle is kind of useless while the L5 is in there, so I might just take it off. Two screws on the sides and it is off. This will just look better. Second, I am considering getting a detachable supply line, to click in to a fitting in the cabinet from the outside. The main benefit to that would be that the inside of the cabinet could be more usable, instead of being where the supply line is stored loosely after I push it back in. In the process of installing this, I went through everything in that cabinet and realized most of it was pretty unnecessary, and the necessary stuff could go in other cabinets where other unnecessary stuff was. So I don't have anything that I need to put in there right now, but if I do want that space, a detachable, small diameter supply hose, to be stored up top with the showerhead would be the trick.


SyncroButter, I have seen some pictures of the space made by the Bostig engine, and that would be quite cool. Don't forget to post pics when you do it!

And GypsyDriver, I don't have the stock water tank, otherwise, I might have plumbed like you are planning to. My syncro came with the westy cabinets but a custom cabinet where the sink/fridge cabinet goes, and no water tank. I have toyed with installing a tank there, and cutting into the wall for the fillups, but have found less drastic ways to go about it, plus I really use that cabinet for tools and kitchen stuff, so it would be tough to lose it. But if you have the tank, it seems like it would be the way to go. Especially if you had a way to fill it from a river when away from hoses!

I love how forums like the Samba allow people to share their installs and ideas and everyone can take from each other's designs to make it work for their purposes. This is certainly the case with my hot shower install and just about everything else on my van. I am grateful for this community!
-macjack
_________________
87 TDI Syncro Westy
81 Westy (sold)
80 Rabbit Wolfsburg (rolled)
Bike as primary transportation

[jimf909]

Best post of the week: Yes
Best post of the month: TBD
Best post of the year: TBD

Well done. Thank you.[/b]
_________________
- Jim

[macjack]

[jebiga41]

Hiya nice install, I hate to rain on your parade but this is not safe. I thought of doing something very similar a few years ago with a on demand gas shower however after seeing it burp a huge fireball at a demo !!!!! I quickly reconsidered my plans. The thought of a fireball being trapped by the tailgate and whoever showering being burnt and shrink wrapped in a shower curtain naked and screaming quickly came to mind. Whilst they can be used on a swing away wheel carrier or mounted on the side of the van they should not be installed indoors
" Eccotemp L5 Portable Tankless Water Heater requires a 2" clearance from a wall, 1' side to side from anything flammable, 3' from a window as well from an overhang and 18" from the ground. " 6. Use only outdoors.
I know its a bitch to hear this after doing such a nice install but better to be safe than sorry.

[GypsyDriver]

Thanks for the reply, macjack. There are advantages to plumbing it the way you have it to an external Jerry can, bucket, river, etc. I have a Coleman submersible pump that I use in exactly the same way. If I understand what you're suggesting for the mod, you could put a quick disconnect on the outside of the cabinet and keep a hose stored somewhere to run to your water source.

Jebiga41, I wouldn't be too concerned with an event such as you describe. There are many similar systems used in homes (I have one in my basement) vented to the outside. My L10 (a bigger version of the L5) has been very reliable mounted on the exterior wall of my outdoor shower. In fact, the instructions discuss mounting inside a barn, etc if I remember correctly. My biggest concern would be heat from the exhaust melting the laminate. My L10's exhaust is about 1.5 inches from the wooden wall its mounted on and no issues so far in that direction. But there's nothing above it. I'd be interested to hear an update from macjack on how the setup handles the heat from the exhaust after a good shower (or two if you're with you're significant other.)

There is a minor risk of a propane leak at the internal valves, burners, or connections on the bottom (btw, it doesn't need 18" of clearance on the bottom ... I suppose they recommend that so you have clearance to hook up hoses and gas lines and the shower head, but there's no other significant activity, exhaust or anything going on down there. If you use 90 degree elbows like macjack it can sit on the floor. I used elbows and hard plumbed (PVC) my L10 in the same way.). But I wouldn't consider the risk a propane leak any greater than that posed by our stoves, refrigerators and propexes all plumbed internally with gas in a constant on state to the igniters. If there was a concern while sleeping, you could simply disconnect the gas bottle.

[macjack]

Jebiga41, thats quite an image! If I had that rolling around in my head, I would hesitate to install it this way too. I am aware of the concern, and agree with GypsyDriver that it poses no more of a risk than stove, fridge, or propex. This is why the fridge and heaters are vented to the outside. It handles both harmful exhaust, and keeps the combustion going to use the propane that is released. Unburned propane it not great, obviously. Unburned propane gas in an enclosed space particularly so. This is why the venting is so important. The AC Infinity fan system moves +50cfm the way I have it set up (with both in the same direction it is rated at 102 CFM, and with one in and one out, I figure half that). It really keeps the air fresh in there and minimizes heat. There is some increase in ambient temp, but no significant heat buildup. This is by "hand" measurement (touch of the hand to surfaces), but for curiosity, I might try to get a remote thermometer set up in there and run it for a few minutes to get more objective data.

GypsyDriver, I wasn't thinking of trying to run the supply line all the way to the river, but rather capture the water in the jerry can and connect the supply line to the quick connect as you envisioned, and still run it to the jerry can. Even camping 25 feet from a river would mean a really long supply line!
-macjack
_________________
87 TDI Syncro Westy
81 Westy (sold)
80 Rabbit Wolfsburg (rolled)
Bike as primary transportation

[GypsyDriver]

Macjack ... your postings say Colorado, so I thought I'd pass on piece of advice I learned the hard way from my L10 installation regarding freezing temperatures that could drive future updates to your design. I presume the L5 has a drain plug at the bottom like the L10 does to drain the system in cold weather or for long-term storage. My first L10 froze when we had a particularly hard freeze as I'd forgotten to drain it prior to a hard cold snap (fairly rare here in Georgia). It cracked the valve body. Ecotemp sells replacement parts on their website and their heaters are pretty easy to work on. You'll be better off with your system enclosed as it is, but you might want to consider a replacing the drain plug with some sort of stopcock hooked to a hose you can pull out and drain the system should you store the system for extended periods. Or you can just pull the whole thing out of the cabinet if you only need to drain it on occasion.

[outcaststudios]

i use the basecamp aquacube portable hot water heater when im camping and operate it pretty much the same way as the OP (out the back of the van and under a clip on shower curtain)except i never permanently installed mine ,i just travel with a clean five gallon bucket and tuck away the shower when not using it. mine runs for four hours from a charge and delivers pretty good hot water plus it doubles a sink with hot water too and i can move it up to the kitchen area in the camper. you can also set the exact temperature with a digital readout,it's awesome!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_yDS-t63qg
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'88Doka JX td
'69 westy
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(rip)three type III"s
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a bunch of french stuff,and 9 motorcycles.

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[ThankYouJerry]

[WLD*WSTY]

Great install! I wish I could find something like it that was rated for higher than 5500' elevation, as I very often camp above that. You must not do a lot of camping in your home state?
_________________
'82 SyncroWesty, the first ever conversion.'06 Subaru 2.5L

[macjack]

GypsyDriver, duly noted about clearing it out for winter. I don't recall a drain plug, but I'll look. I actually installed this last summer. I ran it dry (the pump can handle dry operation) this fall and got as much out as I could before winter. When I fired it up yesterday, it ran great and didn't leak, so seemingly everything was clear enough to prevent a burst somewhere.
Outcast studios, that Aquacube looks like a really cool unit. Same idea, in a self-contained, portable, put it on the ground system. A bit more expensive (when it was offered) and larger? Where do you put it when packing the van? I wanted something that was low profile, could simply be left in the van without much weight or major storage box on the back (that box on the van in the thread from ThankYouJerry is serious!). But digital and stand-alone power. Very cool. Initially I planned to carry the L5 in and out, and run it outside, but I didn't want to wrestle an octopus everytime with hooking up the pump, etc. The fewer things to set up and break down in camp the better.
And Wld*wsty, I haven't used the L5 at very high elevation yet. 8700 Ft is probably as high as I have used it. Moab, Fruita, Telluride, and the San Juans, so far. And it worked fine. I imagine that it may not be as efficient at higher elevations, but I didn't notice a difference in Telluride or the San Juans (~8500 ft) from Fruita or Moab, at ~4k ft.
And I'd like to take the van on more camping trips than I do, for sure! I did drive it across the country last summer from Colorado to Massachusetts and back, and it was nice to have the shower. The shower was more reliable than the signal wire to my starter, until I reattached it in Missouri
-macjack
_________________
87 TDI Syncro Westy
81 Westy (sold)
80 Rabbit Wolfsburg (rolled)
Bike as primary transportation